To be annoyed that a nurse in intensive was cough and spluttering next to patients

[Somethingsosimple]

I’ve had a very long stressful day as a member of my family is intensive care following a major emergency operstion. They are very frail and elderly. When I arrived to visit there was a nurse taking her temperature that was obviously not very well. She kept coughing and sniffing. I heard her complain to another member of staff how unwell she felt. It clearly states that you shouldn’t visit patients if you have coughs or colds but surely nurses shouldn’t be working in intensive care if they are unwell. I dread my relative catching a nasty virus as well as recovering from major surgery.

It's not ideal but sickness is disciplinary in the nhs so she probably had little choice

Oh dear. This is why I'm going to risk it all and stay off work a few more days with my flu bug. YANBU, patients in critical care are vulnerable.

NHS do not treat their staff kindly for taking time off sick believe me. Its a punishable offence. Its discreetly punished via a supposedly researched percentage tool of how much time you're allowed to have off sick but most definitely punished. She probably felt she had no choice but to come in sadly. Bit unprofessional of her to be taking her temperature in view of patients and relatives though. I understand your concerns. If you're that worried pethsis mention in to whoever is on charge and maybe a different nurse will be assigned to your relative for time being.

It's a tough one because sometimes patients die, through lack of staffing.

One can only hope she practices strict hygiene really.

Bit unprofessional of her to be taking her temperature in view of patients and relatives though.

Yes that really was. It makes me wonder if she was hoping for someone to complain, so she might get sent home.

@limpbizkit - I think the nurse was taking the patients temperature, while coughing an spluttering, as opposed to her own

YANBU to be annoyed. But the nurse INBU to turn up ill. It's expected in the NHS. If she didn't turn up she would probably be disciplined and they would struggle to find cover - you'd either have an agency nurse that wasn't familiar with everything or someone who'd already done a 12 hour shift or an unsafe level of staffing.

I can understand your worries., people in intensive care are susceptible to germs so it's risky. If there is any choice in the matter then of course visitors should not come in.

However if the nurse started her shift not too bad and was getting worse there might be no option for her to go home if another nurse could not be found to cover her. The risk has to be assessed. The potential for a cold to be passed on or someone left without 1 to 1 support they need.

Intensive care nurses are specialised and are like hens teeth, there is little or no spare capacity.... they could have already been running short that day. The ward manager would not like her being there either if there was any choice.

I hope your relative recovers soon and gets out to a ward soon

NHS staff are generally scared of sickness policies, truthfully though you’d have to really take the piss to get to a point where any disciplinary action was taken or actually be unfit for the role you’re in. Management rarely do much to put staff at ease about it though and highlight the supportive aspect of it. Plus there’s the whole ‘not letting your team down’ in an under resourced service. That’s a huge pressure.

Or it’s bank/agency staff.

I agree with you, but it’s a multifaceted problem with no easy solution that doesn’t require money and more experienced qualified bodies.

I would suggest (without highlighting individuals) to ask the ward manager their sickness policy for staff and if you can raise it in a constructive way with someone to support them, but realistically I’m sure you’ve much more pressing worries right now. I hope your relative improves soon

but surely nurses shouldn’t be working in intensive care if they are unwell.

Unfortunately the NHS disciplines nursing staff for being off sick , many nurses are bullied/threatened with disciplinary action if they go off sick and the nurse you witnessed coughing maybe could not afford to lose her job.

Cornettoninja
NHS staff are generally scared of sickness policies, truthfully though you’d have to really take the piss to get to a point where any disciplinary action was taken or actually be unfit for the role you’re in.

Em thats a load of crap, several colleagues who had worked for the nhs for many years have lost their jobs because they have had several absences for serious illness, i myself have had life threatening illness resulting in 3 absence in a rolling year which started me down the absence disciplinary route, we were all patients in our own hospital and treated by our colleagues so it wasnt as if we were faking or as you say taking the piss.

You dont even have to have serious illness, just unlucky, for example off for an minor operation, then off because you hurt your back at work, then off because you sprain your ankle, 3 separate absences in a rolling year, you've no option but to go into work with your cold because you cant lose your job.

Icu nursing is generally one to one though. So if the nurse goes home there's no nurse for your relative...

@BettaSplenden It's not ideal but sickness is disciplinary in the nhs so she probably had little choice

Hang on.... The NHS who treat sick people, discipline their staff if they're ever sick? Wtf?!?!

So if someone gets D&V or Sepsis, they're expected to come in and treat vulnerable patients and premature babies etc? People with autoimmune diseases? Fuck me.

I'm going Private

The sickness policy is ridiculous. In a 12 month period I had one stomach bug, one migraine and one very bad cold (when my manager told me to go home) and that meant I had to have a meeting about my sickness and not have any time off sick for the next 6 month's or it would be moved to the next stage of sickness monitoring.

I'm not patient facing so I don't have the added pressure they do, or already having staff shortages. Our itu, along with many other areas, are already short on nurses, so if one is sick there is no one to cover.

Wow this is a shocking thread. NHS rules sound ridiculous tbh. If you're sick, you're sick. They should know that better than anyone.

Hang on.... The NHS who treat sick people, discipline their staff if they're ever sick? Wtf?!?!

Yes - it’s crazy. My best friend from university is a doctor and I remember having a conversation with her about when to go to work when in that “too ill for work, too well for home” weird middle ground.

“Presumably they want you to stay away if you are ill so you don’t give vulnerable people all your nasty germs.”
“No. They expect us in even if we are ill.”
“But presumably not if you are contagious.”
“But is that sensible if you have patients who are really ill?”
“You would think not. And yet.....”
“Presumably you have to follow the 48 hour rule for sickness though.”
“Officially yes. Unofficially - we are supposed to come in.”
“But...... but...... but.....”
“Welcome to the NHS!”

Yup, at the trust i work, they take it very seriously if you have 3 absences in 12 months.
Staff are always coming in when not well enough to be there. It really impacts patient & staff health IMO.

My sickness policy is more than 7 days on one occasion or more than 2 occasions in one year is disciplinary. If you have another episode of sickness in the following 12 months final warning, one more episode within 12 months of that and you’re looking at losing your job.
I broke my leg in an accident caused by a fault at work and still went back to work on a first warning as I had to take 6 weeks off, if I’m off for any reason in the next 9 months (been back 3 months) I’m looking at a second disciplinary.

It’s bad that the nurse was there and coughing and spluttering near patients but tbh fault lies much higher than with her.
I can guarantee if you asked a trust they would stay staff are not adviced to work while ill while also not telling you that sickness can cost them their livelihoods.

YANBU to be annoyed though.

Sickness monitoring and meetings aren’t the same thing as being disciplined are they?

I work in the nhs. Year of the swine flu outbreak (2012 maybe?) I had a week off with that, multiple short episodes for a problem that led to surgery with recovery time and then another bout of illness for something like a uti I think. I never got past stage 2 sickness because they were all genuine cases of illness and the meetings centred around realistic goals for me to meet based on what I could realistically expect to achieve and an occupational health review (where they pretty much signed me off agreeing that I was already doing what I could). It was fine and bar a couple of episodes since I’ve rarely had time off sick since that particularly bad year.

Conversely my colleague was eventually pensioned because she was just to ill to manage the job despite adjustments. There is a point where it has to be accepted you’re just not fit for the job you were employed to do.

The sickness policy is strict and you are expected to be answerable for your absence but it’s not disciplining.

Agree with you and also agree with those saying the NHS sickness policies are the reason behind this. I’m a midwife and work with very vulnerable newborns as a result, if I called in sick with a cough and cold I’d be on a disciplinary as that’s not classed as sick enough to be off. When I was off sick with D&V I had a phone call from my manager to say we were short staffed and so can I come in tomorrow anyway, never mind the 48 hours symptom free policy.

Many times I’ve gone to work whilst being iller than my patients!

I work in the NHS - I follow the 48h rule for vomitting and 24h for temp. If I don't have one of those I come in.
This means coming to work exactly 48h after stopping vomiting before being I've properly eaten.
It means snotting everywhere in work, sometimes pausing while with a patient to go and blow my nose/cough and feeling rotten.
There's been a lot of illness at work recently. Seniors are noticing and sniping (all short term genuine illnesses).
I don't know much about the HR side (I normally forget to tell them - the call to the boss is hard enough), but from my side if I'm sick I feel guilt.
Me off sick means more work for the people not sick, it may mean someone cancelling evening plans to cover my long day, it will mean more jobs and less time for patients.
I push myself not for my patients, but for my colleagues.
Its horrible to see staff snotting around you're vulnerable loved one. But don't blame the staff. Blame the system.
Do you really think that nurse wanted to be there? I'm sure she wished she were not at work even more than you wished she weren't at work.

We have regular e-mails and intranet posts (nhs) reminding us that a cold should not be a reason to be off sick. Last week my nose was streaming so much I was soaking a tissue every few minutes, I carried on working.

There are 1000,000 vacancies in the NHS. People are leaving. Who exactly is going to do the job? The management pressure the workers, who then come in and they are sick at work.

Someone has to care for people.

The irony is that I suspect it makes surprisingly little difference to sickness rates anyway.

I work at a company that are pretty lax about sickness. I don’t know anyone who has had any kind of disciplinary for illness, we get full pay for six months once we have two years of service and people are generally encouraged to go home if ill.

I’ve worked there for nearly 20 years and I think I have had less than 20 days sick in that time. On the whole people don’t take sick days for no reason as we do care about what we do. Those who do are undoubtedly total skivers in the office as well!

Its a tough one- the NHS is clear on infection control. However as an example I've been struggling to shift a sniffly cold for a few weeks now. And just when I think its gone it seems to reappear. If everyone with a cold took time off in the NHS we'd have no service at all