86 year old Secretary sacked

[furryjammies]

There is an article in the DF today about a now 88 year old woman who sacked from her NHS Secretary job for I think fairly spurious reasons at the age of 86. She has won her case for unfair dismissal. Do you think there should be a cut off point for retirement or should you be able to work as long as you want? She wanted to work until 90.

When I did the same job, I looked forward to the days that our 86 year old secretary came in - because she knew what she was doing in a way that nobody else did. She didn't flap her hands and panic because the printer had a paper jam, she just came and asked me to sort it because it mean laying down and sticking my arm into the back of the feeder tray to release the stray sheets (yes, I do think that large printers/copiers are intentionally designed to fuck up in ways that make people pointlessly call expensive engineers to things like paper jams). She could deal with the vast majority of queries from her exhaustive knowledge of the entire hospital.

in addition, as there were lots of older ladies seeing one of the consultants, she made many feel completely at ease because they weren't dealing with a 22 year old (which does make a difference, especially talking about gynae, urology, breast cancer surgery or suchlike).

She also had a great line in stories of sex lives pre-NHS and pre-effective contraception, so was (unlike literally every other secretary who all cited 'moral objections' to get out of doing it) perfectly happy to do the work required to get somebody seen quickly for a termination.

It's very telling that her consultant gave evidence in her favour and was clear that she was being scapegoated for somebody else's failure - it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest that 'somebody' never told her that she also needed to input the details herself (in a different programme she hadn't received training in) when she received printouts of the lists and, as per a lot of NHS managers, then hastily started flinging blame around. Because it's never the manager's fault. Ever.

If I'm still alive able to work at that age, I think I'd rather have a 3 day a week job or volunteer rather than sit at home alone/endure Day Centres full of people with nothing much to say. Even the food in the NHS staff canteen is a better option than what is provided by Meals on Wheels or lunchclubs - add to that proper mental stimulation from talking to many different people and still making a useful contribution, and I think it's daft not to.

At the choir I attend, there are several gents in their 80s. They're brilliant, still sharp as a button, a little wobbly on their feet maybe, some have hearing aids for conversation, but one is a Church Pastor, one runs a Neighbourhood Care system (and visits clients - that are largely younger than him - on his mountain bike now the Insurance won't cover him to drive the minibus). They've still got their brains, it's just their bodies that are showing their age.

So you’re saying it’s ok for younger people to be stuck with the shitty jobs because someone has to do them? Why are we bothering to send our kids to university then?

So you're saying people who are perfectly capable of work and want to, should be forcibly removed from their posts to make way for younger people? That's not a world I want to live in and thank god it's illegal

Younger people may just have to work their way up, and that might mean doing a job that isn't the one they want. You know, just like the rest of us did when we were younger.

"You know, just like the rest of us did when we were younger."

Lots of people who are old now didn't have to start at the very bottom and actually quite often when people say they started at the bottom they mean as a graduate trainee or something.

"She could deal with the vast majority of queries from her exhaustive knowledge of the entire hospital."

But that's to do with how long she's been there, not her age.

"in addition, as there were lots of older ladies seeing one of the consultants, she made many feel completely at ease because they weren't dealing with a 22 year old"

So the options are a 22-year old and an 86-year old. Not possible have someone around 50 or 60?

So many people here talking about workers in their 60s. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about someone in their late 80s.

Depends what job you do - not realistic to expect a prison officer, teacher or police officer to work in their 80's ..........but office based work or similar, as long as they have the skills, technological nous and appropriate energy level, can't see why not.
I do see an issue of 'job blocking' that hinders young people moving into jobs and personally can't imagine wanting to just work all my life instead of enjoying my sunset years travelling and socialising. Guess it depends what else is going on in your life.

Not really. Most were either ticking over before taking early retirement or were being made redundant because they were at the top of Band 4 and therefore were more expensive, whereas a young person would be on entry level banding (with the attached lower holiday entitlement) or they were past retirement age, so didn't mind working shorter hours, as they didn't have mortgages or children to support.

Just wanted to say, I'm retired, but I still eat and travel quite a bit.

Lots of people who are old now didn't have to start at the very bottom and actually quite often when people say they started at the bottom they mean as a graduate trainee or something.

Actually, most people who are 'old' now did start at the bottom because only a tiny percentage were fortunate enough to go to university. I'm in my 50s so hardly old, but there were virtually no graduate trainees (as if!) around when I started working.

"Actually, most people who are 'old' now did start at the bottom because only a tiny percentage were fortunate enough to go to university."

The posters were talking about people working in Tesco, that kind of work. We have no idea whether this 86-year old secretary used to do that.

If we think it's right to bow out gracefully at around 70 from the workplace, could we please get rid of the House of Lords and save taxpayers a fortune?

Eh? You were talking about 'lots of of people'. The ageism on MN has always been the least challenged form of discrimination. And I'm still laughing at the idea of all these old graduate trainees! University then was only available to the rich and the exceptionally academic, unlike now.

My secretary is 65. Best one I've ever had by a long way. I've banned her from talking about retirement!!

Ill have to work into 70s, I have a 2yo to see through college, and don’t have much of a pension at all. DH has a plan to retire then consult for 6mths a year for our income. Doesn’t take into acct I’ll health though.

FIL was made redundant at 55 and foolishly never went back to work. MIL only ever worked for 12 years then quit when she married. Did a bit of cleaning later on in life. They get by ok, but shit that’s a long time not to be earning. They ended up selling us their house so they had cash they could spend on extras.

My husband's boss is 86. His university wpuld probably love him to retire, but he is tenured and loves his job. He isn't what he was in his prime, but he is still a force to bbe reckoned with. I don't think an automatic retirement age is a good idea.

Dowser my dad is having to retire as a JP as well this year. It's ridiculous, 70 is no age and there's nothing wrong with his mind either. (Oh and he also has a full head of dark hair, definitely not dyed )

Most jobs i come across are in care homes, doing work I cannot manage, and which many parents, particularly single ones, can't manage because of the hours and/ or night shifts.

I think there needs to be a mindset shift. A lot of jobs are disappearing as technology takes over, and children need to be taught that they aren't necessarily going to be given a job. They may have to make one for themselves.

It's difficult.

My parents I know are of the opinion that it's selfish to keep working if no financial need as there's not enough jobs to go around anyway and the youngsters especially those with young families need them more. I can see their point.

I also have 2 uncles who work in the construction trade as manual workers. They're in their 50's and worried sick as they're already struggling to continue physically and they feel (and I can see their point) that they're a bit long in the tooth to be learning computers and admin skills at their age. So they're likely facing being "managed" out of their jobs and being unqualified and inexperienced in anything else and so will end up dealing with the whole UC nightmare.

One I suspect has quite severe illiteracy/dyslexia, he really struggled at school, doesn't read anything to the point that his partner helps him even with things like TV guide and timetables and is a very quiet, shy Unassertive type. Tbh I think he'd even struggle doing something like checkout work.

So there's also the problem of people in manual/very stressful & tiring jobs feeling like they have to work for longer than they're really up to doing.

It all rather smacks of boxers treatment in animal farm!

I mentioned on another thread that the govt needs to accept that with modern tech there just isn't as much to do!

So maybe it would make more sense to have a MAX number of hours in a working week per person of maybe 30 BUT people still paid enough to actually live on. If people are working fewer hours in a full time role that frees up jobs for others. But it also means people could possibly work until a later age as fewer hours would be less knackering!

Dad retired young after leaving the army but that was due to medical issues (mainly because of his alcoholism catching up with him).

Mum retired at 65 after working mainly in retail, the last 15 years in management. It was a financial decision to keep going till then as to be honest she was struggling physically, because even though management it was still a lot of walking (she got given a pedometer in a secret Santa once and the number of steps she did at work was bonkers high!), dealing with goods etc plus the mental stress. The first month after she retired I think she pretty much slept most of it!

Also we can scream "age discrimination" all we like but depending on the job and the person as we age we DO become less capable, not only physically but mentally too. I used to be a nurse working mainly in elderly residential care and it's quite frightening how quickly people can deteriorate. And I'm not just talking about the residents! It's a physically demanding job, in one place there was a nurse in her early 60's, sharp mentally but imo no longer fit for the job, she was matrons "pal" and so we all had to work "around" her, what this meant in reality was really all she was doing was drug rounds, feeding patients, light tidying, walking relatives to the rooms of new residents. What we NEEDED was someone who could do lifting, bathing, dressing, changing dressings that required moving patients, someone able to safely restrain dementia patients so they wouldn't hurt themselves or others - none of which she was any longer up to doing. I didn't stay there for long (for many other reasons) but I wonder how the hell they coped with how much she had to be carried!

The odd spelling error in a generic business letter is not ideal, annoying but not the end of the world but as pp say do you really want a shaky 90 year old performing heart surgery or an 80 year old with slow reflexes driving a bus? And few 70 year olds are going to be physically capable of shelf stacking or child minding in a way that would be reasonably expected in those roles.

"People do realise that the UK has record low unemployment and anyone who wants a job could almost certainly get one if they weren't fussy"

Was wondering how long until that popped up! It's not true!

This govt have MASSIVELY massaged the figures. Anyone working even 1 HOUR per FORTNIGHT is not classed as unemployed.

Neither is anyone under 18 even if they aren't in education or training (and no it's not illegal in Scotland or i think Northern Ireland), nor is anyone over 65 included in unemployment figures I believe (relevant to this discussion), nor is anyone who is in receipt of any but job seekers allowance or equivalent benefits, so that includes all the sahm/sahp who'd rather be working, nor are pregnant women I believe. There's a few others too I can't remember off top of my head.

When the stats are looked at another way:

How many actively seeking work v how many full time jobs available I believe last time I looked it up there were 4 X more job seekers than jobs.

They also include ZHC in "full time jobs available"

"People do realise that the UK has record low unemployment and anyone who wants a job could almost certainly get one

Being able to get A Job isn’t the same as being able to get a decent job though. An 80yo solicitor is hogging a job that could be filled by a graduate who will end up working at Tesco instead. Much better for the 80yo to retire so the graduate can develop a proper career." This too

I do have to disagree on the older people and tech side. My mum was at one point being "trained" by a patronising little upstart of a supposed "IT expert" on new software for her job. She's been working with computers since the 60's. She watched him do one thing in a painfully convoluted way, very slowly explaining to her what he was doing, then when he's finished she was like "why didn't you just do..." And did the task in a way that was far quicker than his way AND more accurately (related to discounting goods when on sale) not only was he like "I didn't know you could do it that way", he also queried the accuracy of the result and it transpired he didn't know how to calculate percentages! Not only had my mum figured out a quicker more accurate way to programme the computer she was mentally calculating the percentage so she knew if the figs the computer was giving were accurate. This guy didn't even know 33% was roughly 1/3!!

"I would not like to be on the dying end of the morbidly obese doctor 'running' to resus which I witnessed a few months ago."
It's a bit off topic but my dads side of family all military background as is my ex, they've all commented on how lax the physical requirements for the armed forces are getting. Lots of fear of discrimination, little consideration for the FACT that an overweight/unfit soldier CANNOT do their job properly. My brothers in the police and has made similar comments. He was paired up with a very overweight officer at one point and bro was getting seriously pissed off it was always him having to run after the criminals and therefore ending up often alone with them and getting assaulted! While the other guy huffed and puffed and eventually caught up with them - happy to take the credit though!

In short there's incompetent people of all ages & types and for different reasons.

I don't think someone who is still fully capable of doing a job should be forced out BUT older people do need to accept that they may not be as competent as they think.

I also am worried about people - especially women, but certainly both sexes in physically demanding jobs - who are finding themselves having to work for longer than they're really able to or planned to because they can't afford to retire.

My organisation runs regular recruitment campaigns for 5-15 vacancies at a time. We get upwards of 100 applications and have to sift out so many of them because CVs are badly written and the skills outlined are substandard.

It is a misnomer that technology means there "isn't so much to do nowadays". There is work out there, but people's skills are not up to scratch. We struggle to fill many vacancies, even though we are highly supportive of family friendly hours and many flexible working options, to support all generations of workers, so not biased either towards the younger or older generation.

The reason for Equality nowadays is the recognition it should be able the ability to do the job not about the age on someone's birth certificate. Older people shouldn't be made to feel guilty for wanting to continue working if they are healthy and have the capabilities needed, they provide significant experience, knowledge and can be role models to younger workers. Why should they be branded selfish, if they wish to work, pay their taxes and contribute to society.

I work bank in a Social Care role (I used to manage large care homes before burn out got me). I have numerous colleagues in their late 70s working 50, 60 or even 70+ hours a week. Fit as fiddles with a work ethic to die for, in a physically and mentally demanding role. I suspect the work is what keeps them fighting fit and sharp as a tack.

I’m 65 and work 4 days a week. (The free day makes it easier to travel to look after grandchildren if required.). I spend a fair amount of time sorting out other people’s software problems (particularly Excel). Health permitting, I intend to carry on into my 70s at least.

Oh and the people whose problems I sort are all younger - mostly much younger - than me.

I’m scared of retiring, I don’t think I’ll be able to afford to live on my pension. My pension won’t be worth much at my predicted retirement date, my mortgage will be finished in 10 years , but utility heating bills, water and council tax are expensive and are not likely to be any cheaper. Being able to afford to run a car will be a luxury as will a holiday. Salaries aren’t increasing in line with the rise in cost of living so my savings aren’t great. I already downsized following divorce, so not really an option. My kids are grown up and living their own lives. No grandchildren yet, I told my daughter I’m too young to be a grandmother.😂

I will probably have to work until 75+ if I live that long to hopefully maintain my standard of living and not have too worry about putting the heating on.

I have a theory that competence to cope with stuff is partly in the mind.

My mother hasn't worked since my brother was born-fifty years- and my stepdad retired early about -35 years ago.

Neither of them can handle the idea of doing more than one thing per day. So it's doctors one day, then back into town the following day to buy a couple of bits that they need. Trips are commenced with weighty consideration of where to park.

It's quite wearing to watch, particularly when I manage all this stuff whilst holding down a job and keeping two kids alive.

No I don’t think there should be a mandatory retirement age . At the end of the day if you want to do it and are capable why not carry on working . And many need the money - perhaps not necessarily for themselves . I know plenty of older workers who sub their children/grandchildren etc . And they have a great ,unflappable in many cases ,work ethic .

Hard to imagine she was actually sacked from the NHS, notoriously difficult to sack someone from the NHS. At least she won her appeal. Good on her.
I worked with someone who was let go from the NHS at retirement age, she was devastated. It was her life.