Power of attorney

[cuddly61]

My parents made both my brother and I power of attorney for financial and health and welfare .basically he kept making threats if I activated mine as he had activated his at mum and dads bank.
Now my poor dad passed away in December so as several people had raised concerns about my brother keeping my mum short of money I had a chat with my mum and she said it was ok for me to apply for a bank card as my brother had done it had to be card as representative as my mum is blind.
But my mum has short term memory but full mental capacity and my brother has kicked up a storm saying mum didn’t give me permission.
And my mum can’t remember. A lot more has gone on basically he wants full control of my mums money and isn’t giving my mum any spare money at all.
My question is mums solicitor never said I needed my mums permission when I rang to find out how to activate it ,the bank not once asked me if I had my mums permission even though I explained she had full mental capacity but was blind . Yet my brother has made all these threats about how I could go to jail for five years for fraud etc really bullying me. I don’t know what lies he told my mums solicitor but she went to see my mum and both me and my brother have now had our power of attorney revoked .poor mum can’t even remember doing it although solicitor said mum was very clear.i know my mum she wouldn’t had done anything like that without some suggestion from someone. Yes I asked mums permission yes she agreed I could apply for a bank card so I could take her out shopping etc but she doesn’t remember our conversation I would never do anything without asking my mum first .

Your brother is a liar and a bully. Joint POA gives you both control of your mum's finances - you don't need any further permissions.

It sounds like the POA may have been revoked because your brother is behaving fraudulently and you aren't able to stand up to him and fulfil your legal responsibilities?

Didn't you research your responsibilities when you took on POA?

My dsis and I had it for our mother and we never did a single thing with her money without consulting each other first.

You don't need anyone's permission, your mum gave that when she signed the power of attorney. I activated my mum's when she became unable to sign her name on cheques any more. You need to get all over this, if your brother's keeping your mum short of money, I'd be wondering what else he's been doing with her bank account.

You do know you both have a legal responsibility to ensure you act in your DM's interests right?

It doesn't sound like either of you have done this.

The power of attorney IS the permission. You don't need anything further. Why has your POA been revoked because you acted upon it?

I would imagine your brother is behaving like this because he either (a) has something to hide like he's already spending your Mums money or (b) he thinks you will. I'm guessing a. If your mums mental capacity is as limited as you say that POA needs to be reinstated immediately or she'll be unable to grant one and then her finances will be very difficult to manage.

Did you have power of attorney or did you have their permission to apply for power of attorney? I am down as my parents POA but in order to use it I have to apply to their solicitor to get it in action.....my dad had to do this for an elderly relative this year. So the bank wouldn't all me to do anything until I have done this step. - if your mum had a discussion with the solicitor which she has forgotten....then she probably doesn't have capacity to revoke the PoA. You need to talk to the solicitor and see if he was sure she was of sound mind etc when our elderly relative changed her will after showing signs of dementia the solicitor made her see the doctor first for him to make an assessment on her capacity to do this.

You need to check the Lasting Power of Attorney.

There are two ways that you can start it - either from the time that it is registered (which is usually done upfront once it is signed) or once your Mum has lost capacity.

If it is the first, it is ready to use now. You just need to take it to the banks and institutions to lodge a copy with them.

If you are both Attorney (rather than say he is Attorney and you are replacement) then you can use it now whatever your brother says. You need to check if you are joint or joint and several (it will say in the form).

If you are joint, you both have to be involved in everything (so brother should not be doing anything without you). If you are joint and several then you can do it together or make decisions separately.

I would be very concerned about what your brother is up to. Get to the banks with the original or a certified copy of the LPA and get onto your mum's accounts so you can check what is happening with her money.

Im a bit confused by all this. Who instructed the solicitor that went to see your mother and got her to sign the form revoking POA?

It sounds like your DM's capacity is very limited and I'd be questioning if she had enough capacity to make that decision/what the solicitor said and then what the solicitor proposes to do now if you can't get access to DMs money to go shopping on her behalf. Are they planning on going to the Court of Protection to get them to take over her affairs? That is supposed to be a nightmare although I've no personal experience.
I suppose with hindsight you should have reported your brother to the Court of Protection for abusing his POA. I have a brother who I suspect would act the same as yours in this situation.

Op it's so hard to belive how utterly ruthless people can be, and if someone is ruthless like this they may be a hard character to deal with.
You need to get all over this now. Get to bank solicitor etc maybe even your own solicitor and find out what's been going on. Agree who on earth sent the solicitor to your mum.

Thank you for all ur kind replies.firstly we could act together or solely as poa. The solicitor took someone with her to make sure my mum still had mental capacity and told me she asked my mum if she wanted to revisit her power of attorneys again as she knew by my conversations with her my brother and I wasn’t getting on. In fact it was the solicitor months ago advised me to register my power of attorney with my parents bank as I two needed to keep a eye on the finances of my parents just in case.
According to the solicitor my brother had rang her to discuss my dads will administration of his estate again his was told as my mum was sole excuter only she could deal with this so a appointment was made I knew nothing about this.
Good news is my psychiatrist asked my permission to ask the vulnerable adults team to investigate my brothers treatment of me as I have a mental illness. Mums solicitor says she will arrange a meeting between my mum and my brother and me to sort out now the solicitors are power of attorney how my mums things are going to be paid.

I know this must be very upsetting but maybe in the long run this might be for the best given your Brother’s behaviour. I suspect your Mum’s solicitor went to the Court of Protection as your Brother’s behaviour was classed as financial abuse. Check if the Solicitor has Power of Attorney or Guardianship as they re different.

It sounds quite productive that she’s going to set up a meeting with you all. That way you can express your opinion, the Solicitor can ensure your Mum’s money goes to meet your Mum’s needs and not your Brother’s. You will no longer be a target for your Brother’s bullying and that’s good the vulnerable adults tea, will be investigating.

I was on the receiving end of my Brother’s behaviour over a POA. He accused me of financial abuse to Social Services to get his own way over her care even though he hadn’t seen her for over five years so could adequately assess her care needs. I was very lucky and social services quickly saw what he was doing and he was threatened that their Solicitors would take him to the Court of Protection . It was very stressful. One of the first things I did was to say I would resign as POA which was important as it was protection for me, there are very specific duties that being POA comes with.

So see how current set up goes, it may be for the best though fully understand how worrying it is

It sounds like the correct decision to revoke both of your POAs. Neither of you sound like you were acting in her best interest. Your brother sounded like he was withholding money and you were doing nothing to stop that happening.

I am glad your mums solicitor is acting on her behalf.

It doesn't sound like your mum does have capacity as one of the standard tests for capacity is the ability to retain information.
I would make sure the bank is aware that the poa has been revoked as i wouldn't be trusting brother to tell them, check that his card is cancelled and he no longer has access.

I think she would have needed to take in the information and retain it at that time then repeat it to the satisfaction of solicitor and the other person present. It could be argued that she is telling the OP she doesn’t remember as she doesn’t want to say she gave her permission to revoke the LPA.

Although the mental health act very explicit it’s got grey area and my friend who is a Mental Health Manager said not long ago very exasperated that she didn’t understand in relation to a case (obviously she didn’t say what).

Mum was judged not to have capacity by her psychiatrist however my Brother’s solicitor then got an independent capacity assessor to carry outbassessment when lo and behold (after clear coaching from my Brother) she had capacity again . The report was the biggest load of bullshit ever, everyone knew it but at that point SS had to release her.

Capacity is decision-specific. Somebody might have capacity to make a specific decision at a given time, but not have capacity to make certain other decisions at the same time.

And it's covered by the Mental Capacity Act not the Mental Health Act.

Yy definalty make sure bank knows its been revoked once money withdrawn it's very hard to get it back.
V good to hear its in solicitor hands though.

Awful what adult children do to their parents.

Apologies, meant the Mental Capacity Act.

I did try and act to stop my brother I spoke to my mums solicitor who advised me to activate my power of attorney at the bank but as soon as my brother found out as the bank mistakenly sent the bank card to his address instead of mine and he kept it. Then all this kicked off which I find a bit suspicious.
I had also told the bank when I activated my poa what my brother was doing.
Yes I’m pleased that both of our poa has been revoked but it hasn’t stopped his lies and bullying trying to make out to my mum it was all my fault etc etc that why my psychiatrist has referred it to the vulnerable adults team. Mainly because we still have health and welfare poa for our mum and I don’t think he is fit to be poa as any discussions have to be made jointly and I don’t want him bullying me into getting his own way on discussions.