To expect university students to engage with their studies?

[PissedOffProf]

User name changed because I don't want to totally out myself.

I am a lecturer in a management department at a mid-level UK university. I have tons of experience in teaching, love my job, am nice to students and go out of my way to help them with their learning.

Increasingly, however, I am faced with classrooms of blank faces. Students who clearly have zero interest in their studies. Students who never prepare for their tutorials and have nothing to say. Students who are disruptive in class. Students who watch videos on their phones or do online shopping instead of engaging in classroom activities. Students who do not seem to have any respect for each other as they ignore the others when they speak. Students who, in the end, deliver mediocre work with zero critical thinking or creativity.

AIBU to ask why people decide to get tens of thousands of pounds in debt to spend three years of their lives being bored to death?

Yes but they get three attempts to pass their first year. Bums on seats, innit.

Make that 9250 reasons.

I'm sitting here on a sunny Sunday marking essays. Some of them are genuinely enjoyable, written by students who have thought about their arguments and engaged with the evidence. Most make me want to throw the laptop out of the window; lazy writing, inability to research, incoherent arguments. These are third years.

And you would have to do REALLY POORLY not to pass...

Mother of god. We got a phone call in 2002 from a tutor who kindly told us our DS would fail his third year, because he was returning home all the time because of a nutty girlfriend pre uni. He suggested a year in industry then back to do finals. We were so shocked had no idea he was down the road from us, her mother knew and never said a bloody word, are still grateful to that tutor.

Second DS had a girlfriend doing her Phd. She was marking undergraduate papers, the simple errors were infuriating she said. So she marked down and then was told nah let it go.

Third DS goes to uni. in September, I hope to god he has some caring honest tutors who alert us to problems.

As a tutor I would only ever speak to a parent with written permission from the student. To speak to a parent without that would be to bring all sorts of trouble on myself. How would I know what the relationship between a student and their parents is like? I am not in loco parentis, students are adults and have to be treated as such, I can’t make decisions about what their parents need to know.

chemenger Sun 03-Feb-19 13:37:52
As a tutor I would only ever speak to a parent with written permission from the student. To speak to a parent without that would be to bring all sorts of trouble on myself. How would I know what the relationship between a student and their parents is like? I am not in loco parentis, students are adults and have to be treated as such, I can’t make decisions about what their parents need to know.

........

Then with all due respect Chemenger you are part of the problem. DS did his year in industry, went back aced his finals coming out with honours. He is now very successful in his profession. I am just glad his tutor cared enough to come up with a solution.

No, not part of the problem at all.

chemenger is right. Students are over 18. We cannot contact their parents without their permission, unless in an emergency.

I understand that you're 'grateful' to that tutor on a personal level but actually they were acting well outside of their professional responsibilities.

Sorry, I’m not going to put myself in the disciplinary system because I have chosen to speak to a parent. I have also been approached by parents who I know to be estranged from their children seeking information. Parents going though unpleasant divorces trying to get information to use against their spouse, all sorts. We do not divulge personal information about students to anyone. It’s a line that nobody I know would cross. Not my fault you don’t keep in touch with your child, don’t expect me to parent them for you. It is not my job. It’s not about caring or not caring.

They're adults we cannot speak to they're parents are without permission.
That would result in a disciplinary in my uni.
I've had students who are estranged from their parents and who fear for their lives should their parents track them down. We cannot divulge any information without written permission.

Third DS goes to uni. in September, I hope to god he has some caring honest tutors who alert us to problems.

It's not about whether they are caring or not - it's about the law. It's a breach of data protection law to inform someone's parents, if they are 18 or over. This is part of why young people should be sufficiently mature before going away to University, because part of the learning experience is realising that you aren't at colleague or school anymore and you are responsible for yourself and your education - nobody is obliged to spoon feed you. And whilst it is important that there are welfare and support services for students who need a helping hand, this does not mean that the University staff are in loco parentis.

By expecting your children's tutors to take on this kind of responsibility you are being very unfair. If the 19 y/o that works in my team decided to have a run of sick days every Monday and Friday, I wouldn't be calling his parents to warn them about the future of his job security. Not only is it completely inappropriate, it would also be illegal unless he'd given his specific permission for me to contact them to discuss employment matters on his behalf.

No wonder we have a generation of young people growing up who are terrified of taking on anything by themselves and stunted by fear of failure. Experiencing consequences is a vital part of growing up and parents who continue to infantilise their adult children are harming, rather than helping.

I think some people have a very naive view of student life. When some student say “I don’t know what my parents will do if I fail/get pregnant/take drugs” they don’t mean that they are worried that they won’t get a nice Christmas present. Not all parents are nice.

By expecting your children's tutors to take on this kind of responsibility you are being very unfair. If the 19 y/o that works in my team decided to have a run of sick days every Monday and Friday, I wouldn't be calling his parents to warn them about the future of his job security.

justtalking - in this scenario would you expect your ds's boss to call you? If not, why expect a university tutor to do the same?

Sorry, I meant justasking!

I am a mature student. I have to confess that even I find myself sorting out life admin at the end of a two hour lecture on descriptive statistics. Partly because I am confident with the material already, but mostly because there is only so much active listening I can do before my brain wanders off. I also select which lectures to attend based on the notes available and my personal grasp of the topic after completing the extra reading. I am never disruptive though, and I am achieving really good marks.

However, the apathy I see around me is astounding. My tutorial group has one other mature student in it, and the two of us fill all the awkward silences while all the "kids" cannot muster any response because they haven't a clue what is going on. And the feeling of being a "teachers pet" or "know it all" is definitely there, for the crime of having prepared for a class.

I also feel incredibly sorry for one of our lecturers in particular. This person has truly gone above and beyond. Feedback is acted upon, only for the students to then fail to engage with the things that are put in place. There were extra drop in sessions put on, only 6 people (out of 160) used them, yet there were still complaints that students felt unsupported. The support is there, it just requires effort to engage with it.

If a billionaire's child does the same, then he too gets tuition fees and a full grant paid. All he needs to do is get those grades.

Just a small point about this idea of meritocracy....while the billionaire's child has access to tutors and extra resources that the working class student does not there can never be true meritocracy. The middle classes (in particular) would be in uproar if there was a way to make true meritocracy work. What is the point of Daddy's money if not to enable the not very bright to attend the very best schools?

We take students on clinical placements from university and I second what Chemenger says about the attitude of a significant number of the students we get. I know students where we have questioned their clinical and professional competencies and were going to fail but we have been under pressure by their universities to pass them because the student and their parents have threatened to sue the university and the NHS trust. We know our job and can justify our assessments so have never passed students who we had serious concerns about despite the pressure and threats however we have had students who had passed earlier placements from other trusts who we knew they shouldnt have

sheepsheep I’d like to add that I flatly refuse to do two hour lectures. I can’t sustain the right level of engagement for two hours, I don’t expect students to. I also think it is much more effective to have a period of consolidation between two shorter lectures. If I do have two hour sessions it is to accommodate interactive stuff, which used to be fun, but now is more like stirring cold porridge.

Feedback is acted upon, only for the students to then fail to engage with the things that are put in place. There were extra drop in sessions put on, only 6 people (out of 160) used them, yet there were still complaints that students felt unsupported. The support is there, it just requires effort to engage with it.

My students requested a particular session to be arranged for them, slightly outside of the curriculum but nonetheless we, as lecturers, could absolutely see the value in it so sorted it. It meant 6 members of teaching staff rearranging their schedules to attend. We also invited 15 stakeholders (for want of a better word, trying not to out myself!) who either had to arrange a morning off work or come in on a day off.

Less than 25% of the cohort who, let's remember, had asked specifically for this activity to be arranged for them, bothered to turn up on the day.

And when I say outside of the curriculum I don't mean 'outside of the timetable' - this was scheduled into a normal teaching day.

Are there no longer end of year exams that you had to pass to continue???

In theory... but you have to produce absolute drivel to get less than a 40 where I work. Honestly, the standard required to pass is really, ridiculously low.

And if students aren’t passing or just don’t like an assessment (because it’s ‘hard’) then we are strongly ‘encouraged’ to make it easier change it. I joke that students could hand in a small child’s drawing and still pass (this is not an art and design subject) and my colleagues laugh because it is far too close to the truth.

In addition, the degree regulations allow students to progress even where they haven’t passed everything. Or close to it. And students are allowed to progress into their final year carrying 3 failed modules from the previous year. All because senior management will do anything to ensure the university gets the fees. The university just altered the degree regs to lower the standard required for progression (and it was far too low before they did). Now all you need is a level average of 30. And you actually have to try hard to produce work bad enough to fall below that.

It is not in a student’s best interests to let them continue when they aren’t making the grade. Not is passing them just in case you make them feel bad (I have colleagues who do this).

Actually, we don’t have exams. Because the pass rate plummets when you do and the students complain.

Jeepers crustacean that is depressing. Parents and children forking over tens of thousand of pounds for what? Bangs head. No wonder employers have to go back to A levels and GCSE results.

@crustaceans I have a feeling you are employed at the same sort of places I have... Could regurgitate what you say word for word for that is exactly my experience.

I am sure some of you will teach on Postgrad modules also. What's your experiences there? I'm actually finding some of the students to be even worse than at undergrad. The consumer mentality is particularly potent. I cringed when my place decided they were lowering the entrance requirement to a 2.2.

When clearing comes round pretty much anyone gets in. Its not fair on anyone really. And it totally devalues what was something that you had to actually work for to achieve.

I am sure some of you will teach on Postgrad modules also. What's your experiences there? I'm actually finding some of the students to be even worse than at undergrad.

Once the first lot of undergraduate students who payed tuition fees moved into postgraduate study, you could immediately see the difference in attitude between that cohort and the last. I had to stop teaching a particular text-heavy module because they simply wouldn't read and we therefore weren't able to have seminar discussions.

I teach mainly postgraduate. I love it! Give me them over undergraduates any day!!

I was horrified when I had to grade assessments for the first time. I’d just come out of the industry I now teach in and know the expected standards inside out. I was told I was a very harsh marker. Next to no one whenever I was at university got a first regularly. I got 100% in many of my A-Levels in both exams and coursework and my coursework was used by AQA in as a benchmark for what standard an A* should be. I didn’t get a first at University. I had one alcoholic lecturer on two key modules who hated me because I asked too many questions, thought too much and, ultimately, wouldn’t sleep with him who consistently graded me at 58. He wanted me to have more one to one tutorials and I felt uncomfortable being alone with him so I just accepted the marks. He was put on garden leave and I graduated with an average of 69.4 due to this despite getting decent firsts in other modules and a high mark on my dissertation.

I also only got a Merit at MA, narrowly missing out on a Distinction once again by less than one mark due to an injury during the course which prevented me from participating in a practical part of a module. I had an average mark of 56 in that module but 68 - 76 in the others. This was at an excellent institution. The course comprised of 12 hour days, 5 or 6 days a week for two years. You would lose your place if you were absent 3 times without a very strong explanation. If you were one minute late, the door was slammed in your face and you were told to go home. Fees were £12000 per year.

It pains me beyond belief to be forced to give firsts to students who wouldn’t have even scraped a 2:2 on the courses I was on. I was told I absolutely can’t give out 67, 68 or 69, I must always bump it up to a first. I had to give a high-ish 2:1 to a student who attended two lectures and no tutorials in a twelve week semester and chose to use Disney as a cop out theme for her major assessment on that module.

The reality is that out of a year group of 90 students, at the most two have a chance of ever being employed in the subject.

It’s soul destroying. We are lying to them, deluding them. They will be crushed when they leave.