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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think sometimes we need to question NHS efficiency more?

206 replies

DayCareCase · 24/01/2019 08:12

I support the NHS, I’m up for funding it properly even if this affects taxation. I get lots of contracts etc create issues and the NHS has a tough job.

But...

Sometimes it seems there’s a culture of ‘it’s not us, it’s the cut’ that behaviour can be inefficient, service is no just wrong, but simple things could be easily done to make things better. Either at no cost, or even reducing waste. For example our local hospital only sees children for blood tests in the busiest day when all the clinics run. They could change the time, sometimes you wait 2.5 hours with a 3 yr old, when at 3:30 you can be seen in ten min. Or they could run a kids queue, most no cost options.

Today I’m having surgery. The same. Everyone turns up at 7. Even if you’re due in at 4pm. The first load are allocated a cubicle but about half the people sit in the discharge lounge all morning. I cannot see how this is efficient or benefits anyone. Why not give appt times? (Knowing people may still have to wait) or even just the lot you’ve already got marked down as those without a bed until the first case are seen to come in later. No water 6am-4pm is hard!! Surely it makes later finding vines hard, more anxious patients to deal with and a generally more stressful environment?

I’m also sitting next to where the consultant sees male patients. I’m 6 foot from a guy having to discuss his testicles. Makes the whole male/ female division pointless. Moving the desk a bit, closing the door would be cost free.

Small examples, but every time I go there seems to be no real effort to improve. Some individuals work hard. The lower levels of staff are obviously working hard in a crap environment and ready for abuse. So I guess management? Consultants? There needs to be some focus.

Sometimes I think the culture of don’t question the NHS goes too far...

OP posts:
StartedEarly · 24/01/2019 11:52

Miljah I believe a major issue in the NHS is the (poor) quality of many of its middle managers. Many are recruited 'in house' so the managerial talent pool is often small.
I posted up thread on exactly that. I was only a band 2 but came from a management background. Band 8s with no management experience or training. Low calibre candidates recruited in house, sometimes jumping several pay bands.
Constant reorganisation which amounts to shifting the deckchairs on the Titanic.

Onlyjoinedforthisthread · 24/01/2019 11:53

LakieLady
What you are saying is highlighting inefficiency and the attitude of but but but instead of it getting sorted which is why there is so much inefficiency

LakieLady · 24/01/2019 11:53

Those 'consuming' the most healthcare will never pay enough in taxes to cover what it costs

Absolutely, and I am happy to pay for more than I "consume" to ensure that those with lifelong conditions that mean they will never be in a position to work and pay taxes get the healthcare they need.

And none of us can see the future, so we have no idea what medical conditions we might develop, what accidents might befall us or what costly treatment we may need.

DayCareCase · 24/01/2019 12:00

Idle observation: mixed group going into the day centre. About 50/50 male female split.

All the people except one asked to wait in a waiting room were women. All the men have now been seen.

I’m obviously bored

OP posts:
marymarkle · 24/01/2019 12:00

Yes I consume much more than I will pay. I would have died in my twenties if I had to pay for my own healthcare.

Onlyjoinedforthisthread · 24/01/2019 12:03

marymarkle

Where do you get the idea they don't pay the going rate?

Whenever I see a job advertised the wage is at least equal to private sector and the benefits much better especially up to at least middle management and even into higher management.
Things like generous pension contributions, excellent sick pay, good holiday entitlement, enhanced maternity pay, often flexi time.

JellycatElfie · 24/01/2019 12:03

This is why you need to all turn up together - so paperwork can be done for all of you, anaesthetist needs to see everyone and then decide who goes first (babies, if you’re diabetic etc you gofirst) if you have a recent cough/cold you may not be able to go to theatre yet the next person wouldn’t be turning up for an hour (if you have appt times) therefore theatre would be hanging around for you. If you are proven to have an infection (or risk of) you go last so the theatre doesn’t need to be deep cleaned between patients. It’s annoying yes but the nhs is bloody amazing.

LakieLady · 24/01/2019 12:07

A condition they will not treat effectively AT A COST OF £6 PER YEAR

I know you shouldn't have to, but could get it prescribed privately and fund it yourself?

The NHS refused to fund desensitisation injections (£500, at the time) for my multiple allergies. I now have to justify the cost of the anti-histamine (acrivastine) that works best for me because there is no generic alternative and it costs £9-18 a month (I'm over 60, so my prescriptions are free). I'm going to look into getting it done privately, although I suspect the cost is now well into 4 figures and I quite possibly won't be able to afford it. But if it was, say, £2k or less, I feel it would be worth it, because it would improve my quality of life and reduce the risk of me needing sinus surgery again in a few years.

PlainSpeakingStraightTalking · 24/01/2019 12:13

Procurement needs to be centralised, each trust buying equipment etc doesn’t take advantage of economies of scale- and the admin burden is so much higher.

Dont set me off on this one!

We needed an office photocopier/scanner - we could only by from X company in Germany - that was the procurement directive. It cost £600, we waited 3 months for it to be delivered athen antoehr 3 monthsfor IT to come and connect the phone line to make it work.

6 months down the line, we needed new cartridges, cant get one because the procurement contract is now with Y company and you cant purchaase from X company - so now there is new photocopier that can only scan not photocopy. There is no budget to order a new photocpier from Y company either.

And the original X photocopier could have been purchased from PC world for 200 quid.

Profligate waste

ShatnersWig · 24/01/2019 12:15

@lady No. I would, if I could. But even if I could why the fuck should I? I've been paying in, why shouldn't I get something out? I don't have kids but I've been paying into the education system - quite rightly, I don't begrudge that. But I do begrudge them not spending £6 on me when they will spend thousands upon thousands upon thousands on IVF and all sorts of procedures that have nothing to do with being able to carry on your daily life AND by not spending that £6 on me and others like me, they are going to incur far more costs to the NHS as we deteriorate and age. That's just fucking insane.

BlooShampoo · 24/01/2019 12:18

Some issues I’ve observed:

  • treating longtime medical staff like shit so they leave for private practice
  • outsourcing some things (eg psychiatric inpatient beds) to shit private hospitals, which treat patients like shit and cost the NHS a fuckton of money because they use so many agency staff
  • making extraordinarily stupid funding decisions. Why in the everloving fuck would you cut funding for sexual health services at a health centre whose patients are almost all university students? It’s on the university campus, for fuck’s sake
  • sending out letters telling people to phone a number to book an appointment at a specialist clinic, which they attempt to do, but it’s a fucking dead end number

It’s not a choice between “NHS as it currently is” and “American system”.

DayCareCase · 24/01/2019 12:19

Kinda derailed now. Just found out afternoon theatre starts at 1:30. Morning closed at 11:30. Definitely a slot there to suggest we could have water...

OP posts:
marymarkle · 24/01/2019 12:43

onlyjoined Then why do they not recruit people who can commission and procure multi million pound contracts?

Firesuit · 24/01/2019 12:47

A prolonged hospital stay with ITU, surgery and rehab will cost hundreds of thousands of pounds. Very few people pay enough in tax to cover that.

You haven't grasped the concept of (social) insurance. If everyone paid the same via tax, their bill would be a few thousand a year, every year. The cost of any treatment they receive would be irrelevant to determining whether they were paying their way.

It is probably true that the majority of people don't pay for the NHS care they receive, but that's not because they receive expensive treatment, but because they don't even pay the few thousand "insurance premium", on average over every year of their life. Tax comes very disproportionately from a small number of higher-earning taxpayers.

reallybadidea · 24/01/2019 12:54

Tax comes very disproportionately from a small number of higher-earning taxpayers.

That is my point. "We" don't pay for it. Which, for the majority of people is a very good thing.

Jaxhog · 24/01/2019 12:54

Thw NHS is badly managed from top to bottom. It's partly historic, partly complacency, partly the scope has increased massively and partly because it is just too big to manage.

It's process driven, like most large organisations. Rather than replace processes, more processes have been added and added until they become so complex, people ignore them. Which they do, scarily.

It needs to be split up so that it is less complex. The processes need to massively simplified and overhauled too. Unless you do this, just throwing more money at it won't help.

badlydrawnperson · 24/01/2019 12:54

YANBU There is a culture of putting signs up everywhere too.

For routine stuff whole thing is run around the requirements of the people delivering the service, not those of us receiving it.

It's a great thing to have, but being free at the point of delivery and always starved of resources and subject to political interference means we feel churlish complaining even though we are paying and some things are really really crappy.

I needed a blood test as an out-patient at a hospital. There was a room devoted to this stuff, with a waiting area. I arrived, and noticed there was a ticket machine - like the deli counter at a Supermarket - but there was no-one else around. The person in charge still made me take a ticket, even though she was doing the job immediately.

badlydrawnperson · 24/01/2019 12:56

- treating longtime medical staff like shit so they leave for private practice

I know from personal experience this is true - I have many friends who have been bullied and/or overworked out of the NHS.

BejamNostalgia · 24/01/2019 12:57

And agree that the idea that you don't need managers is stupid. Of course you need managers. Just as money is needed to be spent on evaluating outcomes and what actually works.

The general public IMO have not got a clue about what it needs to run a large organisation well. And the NHS suffers because of that.
Also we spend far less on healthcare than nearly every other developed country.

God this is so nonsensical. As has been pointed out, the NHS is the fifth biggest employer in the world. It's a mammoth organisation, it needs management. It almost certainly needs more not less.

These comments about managers are wrong. The number of managers mushroomed under Labour, as did the number of organisations administering the NHS. There were hospital trusts, PCTs, intermediate care trusts, health and social care trusts, ambulance trusts, acute trusts, mental health trusts, etc, etc, etc.

Loads of these were abolished and merged into foundation trusts. It meant that rather than having 8 boards of directors, 8 Chief Executives, 8 accounts departments, 8 payroll departments, 8 HR departments, 8 estate departments, 8 procurement departments, 8 office blocks, etc, etc, etc, they’re all streamlined into one. That was a huge step in the right direction and made a massive difference.

There were also many, many managers under Labour, frequently at Commissioning level or associated with Commissioning, who would sit in nice shiny offices and never ever encounter a patient or a doctor or a nurse or visit a healthcare setting. Most of them were concerned with ‘business transformation’ and a drive to make the NHS run more like a business. They had legions of expensive consultants nobody was quite sure what the purpose of was. Usually to spout a lot of jargon about blue sky thinking synergy of vectors that nobody understood but everyone pretended they did. They often used very inappropriate techniques of assessment like balanced scorecards which completely ignored that the were dealing with human beings not units of stock. They were also notorious for sending fact finding missions into hospitals which interfered with their running and cocked up all their processes then went back to the office and recommended the board introduce completely impractical, expensive and useless guidelines and policies designed by people who had know idea about the day to day operation of services. These would be introduced for a while, screw everything up, causing huge costs and delays, then eventually be abandoned when frontline staff pleas enough with enough finally got through. I know this because I worked in one of these departments. Many of them were made redundant in 2013, but I also know from my LinkedIn that most of them are now set up as private consultants selling the same services back to the NHS for three times the price. They cost loads (I’m talking £1,000 per day plus) achieved paltry results and added very little value.

There are brilliant bits of the NHS and brilliant managers, mainly the closer to the frontline the better the managers, although I have come across some truly excellent foundation trust management teams.

But it is still an issue. The figures from the King’s Fund report don’t cover consultants or many clinical managers so I’m not entirely sure they are that useful.

There are crap bits of the NHS too. I once worked on a team which was parachuted into places where things had gone wrong (frequently unnecessary deaths, abused or neglected patients, poor practice) and believe me there are some parts of the NHS where employees have the attitude that the primary purpose of the NHS was to employee it’s employees and that patients were an unwelcome inconvenience who should shut up and die quietly. Frequently those places came to crisis precisely because of the ‘NHS are angels and should be above criticism’ attitude that many of its biggest supporters have especially Labour, who presided over travesties like Mid-Staffs.

Yes, it is underfunded in comparison with other developed countries, but most of those (including France and Germany) receive much of their funding via a social security system where everyone is required to pay for health insurance so much of the funding comes from those payments from the insured via private companies rather than straight from the government. Sweden, which also has a single payer (government) like us has similarly poor results. There is also a reluctance in the UK to invest more, because more money doesn’t really result in the improvements one might hope for because it isn’t spent efficiently.

I would far prefer a European system where people pay towards having a health service via insurance and patient choice means poor providers are pushed out. Nobody can be refused insurance because the government regulates it so people with long term conditions can’t be excluded. It works well.

And you do have to question, if the NHS is as great as its supporters say it is, why, in 70 years, has nobody ever copied it? We look a bit silly abroad. Insisting the NHS is the jewel in our crown when it has pitiful results.

Sorry for the length, but I do have a bit of experience in this area so have a bit to say about it.

HJWT · 24/01/2019 13:19

My husband had a 'suspected' heart attack on Saturday, thank god it wasn't.... but it took 12 minutes for the ambulance to get to us.

Onlyjoinedforthisthread · 24/01/2019 13:19

marymarkle
Because they don't want as they don't want to change the have an attitude of 'it's always been done that like that' they don't want new ideas they want people who back up their ideas so they feel good, it happens everywhere but in the private sector companies with that attitude go bust, in the NHS they get more money thrown at it and another interfering politician, advice by the people who got it wrong the first time.
The people who suffer, the nurses, doctors, admin and patients.
It needs a proper review and modernisation that consults properly with all levels, reports back to all levels, listens to their criticisms amends and returns again until agreement can be reached.

In the meantime I bet every single employee in the NHS and most other organisations can find in efficiencies in how they go around their job and recommend improvements and any good employer should listen to them.
You always get those that don't like change and they are the ones that hold us all back

wanderings · 24/01/2019 13:40

Hasn't it also been said on MN that the NHS often won't take perfectly good crutches back, when the patient no longer needs them? I once had to try desk after desk in a hospital to return some; eventually someone took them and put them to one side behind the desk. Whether they saw the light of day again I'll never know!

Kazzyhoward · 24/01/2019 13:58

in the private sector companies with that attitude go bust, in the NHS they get more money thrown at it

Nail on the head there. The "always done it that way" is endemic in inefficient organisations with staff doing things, but they don't know why and probably the reason they do it has long since gone but no-one has thought to stop doing it. Where are the old "time and motion" inspectors when you really need them who can take a holistic over-view at who does what, when and why.

I'm an accountant and was an auditor. It used to really intrigue me how I could walk into one workplace and find a dozen or so staff in the general office running the firm, but then the next week go into a similar sized firm doing similar, to find just a couple of administrators, looking no busier. I remember one firm in particular which had a small army of office staff, many of whom seemed to spend most of the day putting figures in boxes on various "day sheets" and doing a few sums on their calculators, and then they passed the sheet to someone else, for the next person to copy the figures onto their own "day sheets" and do some number crunching - it was like some weird kind of merry go round with them all seemingly chasing each other all day for the sheets, which eventually ended up back where they started, just to be put in the filing cabinets ready to be taken out the next day. I sat in a corner of that office for days on end and never actually saw anyone else ask to see the reports. Inevitable it went bust as there was no bottomless pit or money tree to keep it afloat.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 24/01/2019 14:38

Well said, DayCareCase. Tthere are exceptions to anything of course, but when talking about the general ethos rather than specifics I believe you're right

The key for me is lack of accountability and a culture where there's always another manager / committee / whatever to pass it all on to. And if they don't fell like taking the responsibility? Well, never mind ... there's always the "savage cuts" excuse to fall back on

MorbidlyObese · 24/01/2019 15:41

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