Please help me get some sleep

[BabyDarlingDollfaceHoney]

Sorry, I posted in parenting but didn't get any replies so posting here for traffic. Also, sorry it's long.

I have a gorgeous 5 month old baby girl. She is wonderful in every way, but she only sleeps while she's being held and likes to comfort suck a lot while sleeping (she is breast fed).

For her daytime naps this is inconvenient but achievable. I don't get much done but she sleeps happily enough on my lap and naps well.

During the night however I am really struggling. If I get her fast asleep I can sometimes get her into her moses basket asleep and she might stay asleep for a maximum of 2 hours. This only happens once per night though and most of the time she doesn't sleep there for more than 30 - 40 minutes at a time. Sometimes only 10 minutes though. It takes a good hour to get her deeply asleep enough to get her back down each time she wakes, do I'm getting virtually no sleep. She spends most of the night asleep on my lap, comfort sucking.

Once or twice per night my husband will take her from me while she's asleep and she'll stay asleep on his lap for up to an hour while I grab a little bit of sleep.

I feel like I have tied everything. Things I have tried:

Co sleeping (didn't make any difference, she still woke and wanted to be held, even side to side nursing wasn't enough).

Laying a worn t shirt in her basket so she can smell me.

Inserts for the basket (Babymoov Cosydream)

Having the basket in different positions (next to my side of the bed, on the other side of the room, in her own room next door - no change)

Dummies (she spits them out)

Making sure she isn't hungry. I have her one bottle of formula in the evening before bed. I've tried giving more in the night but even if she takes it she doesn't sleep for any longer.

Playing white noise.

Warming the basket with a hot water bottle for her.

Dressing her more and less warmly / keeping the room cooler and warmer.

I have not and am not willing to try any cry it out techniques (at the moment. I realise I may get more desperate if things don't improve).

I thought the next thing to try would be to start laying her down when drowsy, picking her up and soothing her on the breast again when she fusses, but keep putting her down and not letting her fall asleep on me.

My concerns with this are primarily that it won't work and also that she'll become chronically overtired.

Can anyone tell me of this is a reasonable thing to try?

I have read loads but everything seems so oversimplified and also everything I read seems to contradict something else I've read.

I should add that she's a happy baby. She's hitting her milestones and she is not generally a fussy baby. She doesn't cry very much, even at night (I pick her up before she starts, if left in her basket she would cry).

If anyone has any experience with a baby like mine or anything I haven't tried I would be so grateful for advice. Or anyone to just tell me things will get better on their own? Any pearls of wisdom oh wise mumsnetters?

TIA x

2 of mine were like this and so is my third, who is currently 5 months old. It will get better! I co sleep, that's my only advice at the mo! Eventually they will sleep for longer, just hold on in there!

One word - sling. (Try a few sling libraries). It's the only way

Thank you. Even that is reassuring. I'm existing on 2 or 3 hours sleep per night but I can continue if there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

I just constantly feel like it must be because I'm doing something wrong. Everyone else seems to have these magical sleeping babies.

Yes, I have a song and occasionally she'll nap in it when we're out and about. Only if I'm walking though, as soon as I stop or sit down she wakes up.

The daytime sleeping is less of a worry to me to be honest. It's the nights that are driving me mad.

*sling

The day sleep feeds the night sleep though. So if she's catnapping for not very long on you in the day and waking before entering the deep sleep phase then she won't be able to do it at night either.

I would say give her a month, if you can, until she starts solids. Then if the problem continues start with the day sleep - not the night sleep - and try to get her to have at least one long nap in her cot. Once she's got the hang of that the nights will improve.

If you're confident she's not hungry, clean nappy, right temperature etc I'd let her cry it out. But then I'm old school.

Thank you. Today at each nap time I have tried putting her in her cot when drowsy. Each time she's fussed I've tried again but after about 5 attempts she's just given up on the nap. So she hasn't really napped today (normally naps 4 times a day).

You have to keep plugging away with the naps. It's a bit easier in the day than in the middle of the night, I find. Less maddening.

She sleeps for up to 4 hours in the day.

Ok, thank you Jam.

I had the same issue. At around about 5 months I started going out during the day for longer periods so he couldn't just feed and catnap all day. It helped a little. Time will help a lot.

Cosleeping worked for us, I know you said it doesn't for you but maybe try feeding to sleep lying down during the day (side by side, same bed), get her used to it. I know feeding to sleep is not great but desperate times call for desperate measures.

I also found better day sleeps mean better night sleep. I can send you a sleepyhead if you think it'll help? Didn't work for us.

Hi I was in the same position as you. Baby was sleeping in a moses basket or cot for the first 90 min then needed a feed and slept with me waking up every 90 min to feed. I didn't want to Co sleep but I felt I didn't have an option as I kept falling asleep when feeding and it wasn't safe.

I mentioned to the health visitors at one of the weigh in and they sent a sleep expert HV around, she was actually very helpful and it was good to have someone to talk to about it. She said they didn't recommend sleep training til at least 6 months

I stuck it out til 7 months and it didn't get any better. It was hell to be honest. I asked in some breastfeeding groups and they were all saying it was normal and just to go with it and it would eventually get better.

At 7 months I got a sleep consultant in. She said this is so common especially for breastfed babies as they get into a habit of waking up and needing comfort to get back to sleep. It was so extreme in our case that she was only having a couple of feeds in the day as shed been feeding all night.

She recommended the disappearing chair technique of sleep training - they do cry but you are there with them. It worked the first night she slept all night in her own room and woke once and the second she slept through. I don't think it's because she doesn't think there is any point in crying like some people say, as she still does cry and we go in and pick her up if she is distressed or ill.

Anyway it worked for us, she started eating properly in the day and seemed a lot happier. I feel like I got my life back as well

I'd recommend the disappearing chair sleep training technique when they are old enough to not need milk in the night any more and also HV worth a try

Good luck

Thank you so much meringue. It sounds very similar to my situation. I've been looking at private sleep consultants but I have been putting it off because I know they'll recommend letting her cry which I really struggle with. But I have to do something!

I'll read up more about disappearing chair techniques.

30+ years of caring for probably 20+ babies here.

2 things leapt out at me reading your op.

1 That loooooong list of "I have already tried" given baby is only 5 months old you cannot possibly have tried them with any consistency - it can take 2-3 weeks to know for definite if a technique works or not and for baby to get used to it - remember baby doesn't have a problem with what's currently happening, they're getting enough sleep, thriving and meeting milestones - it's you that's suffering!

2 I'm getting the idea baby is maybe sleeping too much in the day (once you add up all the short naps) and possibly if they're having 1 or 2 naps too close to night time they're not going to be tired enough to go into a deep sleep at night.

"She sleeps for up to 4 hours in the day." Yea I'd say that's too much (even though "experts" say otherwise) and certainly not after 5pm for a nap

I'm also getting the sense (and this will partly be due to heightened reaction due to sleep deprivation - you're more "jumpy", partly due to this whole thing stressing you) that you're responding INSTANTLY as soon as she stirs, I did similar with dd (the big difference when it's your own? It's 24/7! No overnight break!) and then husband had to remind me of my own advice - give it at least 3 mins, if they're just stirring - as we all do nobody stays fully asleep for more than a few hours at a time - then they're best left alone. You could actually be waking her out of a drowsy state and not realising, it's very easily done.

So... Go back to TRYING co-sleeping etc but give each thing a proper go this time not just a few nights. If you sense something is almost working eg warming cot before putting her in it - you could add another technique eg scented t-shirt to enhance the experience A but not too early on so as you can rule in/out which techniques are working for her (and you) and which really aren't. Unfortunately it is trial and error.

@Graphista wow thank you, your post was so insightful.

You're right. About everything. I know I'm guilty of desperately veering from one approach to the next because I'm so tired and desperate to fix things! I need to be more consistent but it is so difficult when you can't see any improvements and you're shattered! I know I keep looking for the one magic thing I can change to suddenly make it all right and I know that doesn't exist. I need to play the long game and I'm determined to do that with this current approach.

I'll be honest the co sleeping I only did for three nights. I found it so incredibly stressful. I was so worried about smothering her and waking up to find I'd killed her. I lay awake most of the night even while she slept because I was so scared. I'd really like to find an approach that doesn't involve co sleeping at least until she's a bit older and bigger.

It's very interesting what you say about waiting a few minutes. Occasionally I need to pop to the loo or get a drink before I pick her up, and every now and again I come back to find she's still asleep. So I may be going to her too quickly. I will try to wait a few minutes tonight. (by the way she resisted napping alone all day but I have just got her off to sleep about half an hour ago in her basket so fingers crossed).

I do keep her quite busy in the day with clubs, trips out etc but she does nap a lot and sometimes quite late (5.30ish). I have been trying to gradually bring her bedtime forward from 9 pm to 6.30 because I think I was putting her down too late (I didn't want my husband to miss time with her after work - he doesn't get home til 19.30). By bedtime I mean the time she goes to sleep, the bedtime routine of bath, massage, bottle, burping, breast, basket takes a long time!

I really appreciate your replies everyone. It it so nice just to hear that other babies have been similar and gotten out of it! All my friends seem to complain about the kind of night I'd give my left leg for and it's very dispiriting.

Also by the way some of the things I listed are things I do consistently every night. She always has the Cosydream (warmed) and I play quiet white noise for her. Also a bottle before and putting her down with a dummy when I can get her to take it.

I was terrified of squashing my baby and stayed up all night watching him breathe too. Eventually I bought a Snuza MD, it attaches to his nappy and monitors his breathing. It was expensive (about £80) but I'd honestly pay triple that for the peace of mind it gives me.
That said, cosleeping doesn't work for everyone so you have to do what's best for you (and your daughter).

My eldest was like that, so you have my utmost sympathy.

We got hold of a wind up swing and she would fall asleep in that during the day. I'd transfer her to the cot so she got used to waking up there.
Fortunately, with perseverance, she took a dummy which I absolutely hated but needs must. We restricted it's use to sleeping.

At about 8 months we bit the bullet and went through controlled crying. It was bloody hard for us to do but it really did do the trick and was the turning point. We did it with youngest at 6 months. Both times took less than a week. However, if you are going to give it a go then you really have to do it properly - it will fail if you are half hearted.

The book said not to pick them up to comfort, put we did - just long enough to calm and then back in the cot for the next round.
I arranged to debrief with my mum every morning, that way we were less likely to waiver as I'd have to admit to it.

Things will get better.

I hope you manage to figure something out.

Sleep deprivation messes with your logic! Even your experience!

By the time u had dd I had 14 years of experience of looking after other people's babies alone as babysitter initially and later as a nanny.

26 years of looking after babies full stop! And yet I forgot basics.

Consistency
Patience (VERY hard when sleep deprived!)
Rule out obvious obstacles to whatever you're trying to achieve.

Around the same age, well 6 months I put dd in her own room after mostly co-sleeping (you won't roll over her providing you're sober & healthy your body knows to avoid that even in sleep) as our night time noises were starting to wake her. She became really unsettled and we ended up creeping about & watching tv on subtitles! And still she was waking if we put the kettle on - other side of house and different floor! I was tearing my hair out then my mum (eldest of 6 mother of 3...cousin of seemingly hundreds ) sort of "told me off"

"She's lonely you idiot! She's gone from sleeping in a room if not a bed with 2 other people and so almost constant reassurance that someone's there to in a dark room on her own in complete silence! She's waking and screaming when there's noise as she's desperate to know there's someone there"

She advised making plenty of noise- telly, music, run a bath hell Hoover the landing! She'll get used to being alone but knowing you're around - within 3 days much happier household!

When we're mired in exhaustion, hormones, leaky boobs, lack of nutrition cos you never get peace to finish a meal... It's easy to fall into daft traps.

And mumW's post reminded me when dd was teething and couldn't sleep we put her in the bouncy chair in front of the washing machine on permanent spin! (The vibrations from the machine were the factor - this was pre some bloody genius coming up with vibrating chairs!) at the time that & Ashton's powders were the only things that worked!

Thank you everyone. We've just had the best night we've had in weeks (maybe it's like when you make a doctors appointment and instantly feel better? Ask mumsnet and things will be fixed!). She went to bed at 6 pm and is awake now. She woke 5 times in the night (very good for her) and each time I put her down drowsy. This took several attempts sometimes and I was up in the night with her for a total of 3hrs 45mins (also very good for us). This means she slept in her basket for over 9 hours during the night! This is unheard of!

I doubt my sleep training is working already so I can only assume it's because she was shattered after not napping properly yesterday. Interesting though, and adds weight to the argument that I might be letting her nap too much in the daytime.

I will persevere today definitely. All the comments have been so helpful already, thank you.

She was dozing mostly for the 3hr 45mins I was up with her. It was waiting for her to be sleepy enough to get the dummy in.

That's great! Perhaps as you say too much sleep in day is main factor.

The "expert" advice is 3-4 hours in day but my personal experience around this age is more than 3 and there's problems at night - BUT every child is different and it may take some experimentation until you find out what's the right balance for you both. Also their needs change over time - the dreaded "but X was working and now you've gone and decided it isn't!" Factor

As I only had the one myself (couldn't have any more for medical reasons ) I WAS napping when she napped - when she dropped to one nap it nearly KILLED me! I needed that break! I adjusted eventually of course but it was bloody hard!

What do you mean by her sleeping in a 'basket'? She's far too old for a Moses basket at 5 months. I imagine she is very squashed which won't be helping her sleep.