to have mixed feelings about this school's actions

[brizzledrizzle]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-46877217

The school have some parents who have not been paying for their children's school lunches to the extent that the school are owed £1000. They have now said that children may be given toast or a bread roll for lunch if their parents owe over £10. It's only affecting pupils in year 3-6 as the others get a universal free school meal.

I'm in two minds about it, parents need to take responsibility for paying for their children (or applying for free school meals if eligible) but the school have a responsibility to the children to educate them and if they've had a couple of slices of toast then are they going to be able to concentrate properly in the afternoons if they are hungry?
If they are from poor families then the school lunch might be their only decent meal so it's going to affect their nutrition if their parents can't/won't provide a nutritious meal. Maybe the school need to do more to raise awareness of applying for free school meals?
I can't make my mind up really if they are right or wrong to do this.

Funnily enough, the parents who never used to pay for school dinners were the ones who came across as more well off than others. Nice cars and clothes, seen out and about in expensive shops making lots of purchases etc. Tatty children though.

The parents who were struggling would always tell us and we'd help sort it, whether it be through FSM applications or later payments. There was more pride there over their children being clean and smart and paying their way.

Also remember a lot of parents won't claim FSM because of the stigma. Many parents in the smaller schools I've taught in won't claim because everyone is aware of the FSM children. They're taken out of class for extra support whether it's needed or not, and school volunteers "talk" even though it's confidential information.

My children's school doesn't allow you to do more than a couple of pounds in debt. You get an email reminder and then have to pay online or in cash, or no dinner that's that.

One of my secondary age children never eats in school, just refuses to use the canteen or eat a packed lunch. I feel terrible about it but they won't budge. They have a proper dinner at 3.30 or whenever they get in!

That's not an excuse not to feed them though!

We had this issue with school trips. Certain families never paid for the trips so the school always had to pay for those children. The recent budget cuts meant that we couldn't do this anymore so we informed parents that unless full payment was received (except PP) the trip wouldn't happen. A couple of times the other parents offered to pay 50p extra each so a trip would not be cancelled but now everyone pays.

I was in a position where school meals were beyond me financially at one point for a short while, and yes, I sent packed lunches in instead. The issue however was the lunchbox police in my case! At the time due to having emergency surgery and the recovery time, and waiting for the bit of support that you get in that situation money was really tight, living in a village I only really had access to a small corner shop until well enough to go further afield alone and safely. Stuff was expensive in that shop and they didn't have fresh fruit at all. For the time this happened I got a letter every day detailing how my packed lunch didn't 'meet their standards' despite calling to explain. I remember feeling quite frustrated with the whole thing, it wasn't choice that led to the situation. Luckily for me it was relatively short but I could see that it'd be really hard for someone who found themselves in a similar situation for any length of time.
That's not to say I think the school should foot the bill, just pointing out it's not always as simple as 'send a packed lunch', though I remember posting here at the time and got flamed for making up excuses to not feed my child decent food so 🤷 can't win with some no matter what you do.

Our primary school has the rule that no money no lunch as they order them at start of week and have to pay for them the same day - meals are not cooked on site. If parents forget pack lunch then the kids get some toast and fruit.

Also remember a lot of parents won't claim FSM because of the stigma.

Then those parents are bloody selfish for putting their pride ahead of feeding their own children.

Surely the best solution is to send a letter to the parents explaining that either they pay for the lunches, or if they are unable to the school will report to social services in the hope they will receive support. No matter the reason, not feeding your child is neglect and needs looking into.

TimeForDinnerDinnerDinner Fri 18-Jan-19 05:39:54
Do you honestly think schools have the budget to pay for a hot meal for all these children 5 days a week OP? Or maybe you're "outraged" enough about this situation to pay for their meals yourself??

Personally, I think the school should be praised for finding the cash to feed the non-payers toast, not questioned on whether or not they've fulfilled the moral obligations.

Seriously, some people need to live in the real world

They probably aren't finding the money, the teachers are probably paying for it.

My sister was a TA and is now a speech & language therapist in a specialist school and every school she's worked in, except for this one I believe, though this one may be included, the class staff have bought breakfast in for children that haven't had any. They kept a stock of bread for toast & toppings and fruit.

If people cannot afford to send in a simple sandwich instead of buying hot dinner or applying for FSM / pupil premium if eligible then it is an issue for social services.

I agree with this. If I was in the position of not being able to afford/access £3 a week for a loaf of bread, cheese spread, bag of fruit and a little chocolate I'd be communicating with the school myself to ask for help, applying for a food bank or taking whatever other steps necessary to resolve this. If parents are not doing this, it seems to be an issue for either SS or (less likely, imo) some sort of extreme "lost in translation" problem.

Also remember a lot of parents won't claim FSM because of the stigma. Many parents in the smaller schools I've taught in won't claim because everyone is aware of the FSM children. They're taken out of class for extra support whether it's needed or not, and school volunteers "talk" even though it's confidential information

There is no circumstance in which a school volunteer should have access to the information of which children are on FSM, I would be complaining to the Governors about this ASAP.

Also the PP who said parents shouldn’t be so selfish to let pride stop them providing for their children I couldn’t agree more.

that unfair on the school people not paying. at least the school is offering something but its not up to them. if the parents cannot afford lunches they should not have had them and sent in packed lunches instead

I think ideally the 'cap' at which the school stops providing a hot meal should be the equivalent of five weeks. Because that's the time a parent might be stuck waiting for their Universal Credit payment to come through. However, there should also be communication between the school and the parents about the matter - to see if the parents need help applying for FSM or if there are safeguarding concerns.
If a parent has run up £1000 in school dinner debt then why hasn't anything been done sooner? I appreciate that schools have budgetary issues more than ever these days, and so do many families. (One of my jobs is in education) An awful lot of school staff really go out of their way to help DC from very poor families and, yes, a lot of the responsibility for this mess lies with the Government and the awful unnecessary bullshit of 'austerity'.

But it's not unreasonable to be concerned at schools refusing to give DC a meal, particularly if it gets to the point where little kids go hungry because their parents are one day late in topping up the account. I've had a few issues with that in the past: you have to top up a minimum of £5.00 (even though a day's lunch is only £2-3) and sometimes I've only had 3.50 in the bank account...).

I think it's perfectly fair enough.

My experience though of that sort of situation is that those who struggle to pay, will usually manage to find something even if it means they themselves going without any food.
However people that can afford it go "Oh I'm £2 over, they haven't done anything, so it doesn't matter if I go further into debt. Anyway they won't not feed them so I just send them in without a lunch."

And they're not saying they will starve the children, just give them toast or a roll for lunch. My children would be very happy with that as a standard thing-dd2 (who is 15yo) chose to eat plain rolls last night for dinner. I offered her hot dogs, which she normally likes, but she said they were nice rolls and she just wanted them,

If the school allow pack lunches then the children should be switched over to packed lunches.

Our school does not allow packed lunches, they insist everyone eats a ‘family style lunch’ together, no exception, not even for allergies (they provide special meals for allergies).

Which was all fine and dandy when DS was in Years 1 and 2. Not so great in Yr 3 & 4 as we are obligated to pay lunch money each week, with no choice or ability to economise or stop if we can’t afford it. Yay. Absolutely disgusting to force people to spend £20 each week, and that’s just for one child. I’m sure this will be leaving some families without food for the mums/others at home, or struggling with bills or rent.

But when there was a push back to this scheme the head teacher sent out a letter saying she was doing this to Male lunch times fully inclusivs!!! Humm, inclusive at the school dinner table maybe, by way of deepening exclusion outside that room.

Anyway, thank God after a hideous year last year DS is now on pupil premium... although the school admin don’t seem to remember that and keep badgering me for the mounting school dinner bill. I think it’s because I don’t ‘look’ poverty stricken enough for them. They’re a bit like that (seethes). Sigh. And why did I try so hard to get DS into this sodding school again?

The thing that would worry me is that the children having toast for lunch will be very visible and potentially open to teasing / bullying nd feeling humiliated for something that's not their fault

Dreaming 😳
What an idiotic comment. Can you nOt understand that some people's situation can change through no fault of their own - and some situations are temporary. So you think by the time you have a child to the child going through and finishing school - life will always just get better and better for everyone !

It seems the best compromise in difficult times. It would be great if there was more budget to help, but - having been the kid who had a lot of food insecurity and often felt a bit vulturey as often I had to wait for other's to offer their leftovers as I simply didn't have the funds or food for lunch - if toast had been freely available, I'd probably still sneak in at the end of lunch and take any leftovers going, but knowing it was available would have been such a weight off of my mind.

There is no circumstance in which a school volunteer should have access to the information of which children are on FSM.

Absolutely, in an ideal world.

However when children are being taken out of class and it's announced that it's for "FSM support" and there are classroom volunteers present, or when the FSM children are on a school trip and they take out their packed lunches in a paper bag that have been prepared by the school, it's very obvious. The children are all very aware of who is on FSM too. Especially in small schools.

When I worked in schools, several parents refused to fill in the free school meal forms because they were ashamed.

The teachers at one school ended up feeding one boy every day because his father would not let him have free school meals, even though they were in dire straights and lived in a hostel. The father was literate and could have filled in the forms but was adamant that his child would not accept charity.

Oh also, regarding the stigma of FSM, I agree that if you can't provide lunch, you should not be selfish. Your child needs to eat.

However, I can see why there are mixed feelings. Parents are aware in some schools that FSM mean their child will then be known for having them, meaning that people will gossip about their income/issues.

I remember when I had to stop working for a while due to my disabilities and I was eligible to apply. I called DS' school, where I actually taught for a while and observed FSM support, to ask if DS could remain in class as he didn't need the extra support. He's a more able pupil and I felt he didn't need to be taken out of class for two hours for emotional/behavioural support and literacy /numeracy support. He simply didn't need it. I was told that he'd have to go out for support if on FSM. I was very against this and thankfully my parents paid the £45 a month charge until I was back at work again.

I'm many schools, it is assumed that FSM children are living in poverty and therefore "behind" in code subjects as well as having issues at home that require extra support. Some children are just living normal lives, with parents who are having a blip for whatever reason. The judging and lumping them all in the same category is wrong. There are many children who are NOT on FSM who could do with that extra support!

Sorry for the million typos, my dog is on my lap

Where are all these schools where children are stigmatized for having free school meals? In all the primaries I know all the payments are done electronically and no-one knows how an individual's meals are paid for. I also don't think most children would care, its not like 30 years ago when you had to wear a special wristband (yes I was a fsm child).

Biggerknickersagain Fri 18-Jan-19 08:49:13
I was in a position where school meals were beyond me financially at one point for a short while, and yes, I sent packed lunches in instead. The issue however was the lunchbox police in my case! At the time due to having emergency surgery and the recovery time, and waiting for the bit of support that you get in that situation money was really tight, living in a village I only really had access to a small corner shop until well enough to go further afield alone and safely. Stuff was expensive in that shop and they didn't have fresh fruit at all. For the time this happened I got a letter every day detailing how my packed lunch didn't 'meet their standards' despite calling to explain. I remember feeling quite frustrated with the whole thing, it wasn't choice that led to the situation. Luckily for me it was relatively short but I could see that it'd be really hard for someone who found themselves in a similar situation for any length of time.
That's not to say I think the school should foot the bill, just pointing out it's not always as simple as 'send a packed lunch', though I remember posting here at the time and got flamed for making up excuses to not feed my child decent food so 🤷 can't win with some no matter what you do.

This is very true. A loaf of value white bread, value cheese, multi pack of value crisps and a value biscuit/chocolate is a lot cheaper than all the virtuous healthy food, fresh fruit & veg that seems to be demanded by schools now. Something is better than nothing.

I work in a school. There are no easy answers to this problem. Schools have had their budgets decimated and really can't afford to feed every child whose parents aren't willing or able provide a hot meal/packed lunch. But on the other hand, we have a duty of care to the children and no one wants to see them go hungry.

What ends up happening all to often is that school staff end up filling the gap, out of their own pockets. I have a drawer in my office full of snacks, drinks, sanitary towels, deodorant, shower gel, tights etc that I paid for myself and give out to students whose parents aren't providing what they need. I shouldn't have to do this but I will keep doing it and in some ways this probably keeps the problem going as the parents then expect it. But what else can I do when a child is being bullied because they smell and they tell me their Mum refuses to buy them deodorant? Some of my students come into school burdened with very adult problems that I can't fix, but I can fix that one small problem, so of course I do.

Those saying that the families in question should be referred to social services. Believe me, we know. I spend a significant portion of my working week making referrals to social services but they rarely result in any ongoing support. Very often the response we get is "we've been to the house, there's plenty of food". Another one we hear a lot is "the children aren't underweight". No, they're not underweight because we, the school, are feeding them! To be fair to SS it can be very difficult to evidence that the children aren't being fed because most kids will lie to protect their parents.

Recovering debt is really not something schools want to do I would imagine. My DH used to be involved with the after school club at DD's school. One parent racked up huge bills and kept sending her kids to the club. The staff and volunteers knew parent was having difficulty but couldn't afford to keep this bill getting bigger. No one wanted to try and recover the debt either. Very stressful for all concerned.