To think it’s easier to want open boarders if you’re privileged?

[Theselfishsister]

Having an ongoing conflict with my sister regarding refugees, she’s very ‘let everyone in’ I would say I’m somewhere in the middle.

She’s given up spare bedrooms to refugees, spends weekends in Calais helping them and is posting everywhere on SM about letting them all in. As well as attending protests regularly for the last 4 years or so.

What strikes me is that her and her other friends going to all of the events are white, MC (although she is by marriage, we grew up very WC) and live incredibly comfortably. She’s a SAHM and her husband owns his own company, they have never needed benefits or social housing and her children are privately educated with all of them receiving private medical care.

A massive increase in people here are unlikely to ever have much affect on her life, she won’t have to fight for jobs or wait for a house or deal with benefit cuts when too much is paid out, as well as the increase in waits for Medical care and school admissions. Whereas for someone like me, this is obviously a more worrying factor and the thought of just opening our borders to everyone does scare me. As much as I would love to be able to take every person fleeing a great life, it just causes me worry and I don’t think I could support completely open boarders.

She obviously just thinks I’m a selfish heartless bitch for not protesting to remove our borders or similar. When I asked why she let refugees sleep in her spare rooms but never the homeless man on the road behind her (who’s been in the same spot since she moved there 5 years ago!) she called me a racist!

So AIBU to think it’s easier to want open boarders if you’re privileged or am I just a selfish cow?

We need to distinguish between bilingual children of immigrants from naice homes and children who don't speak English. I'm not suggesting that the latter group are bad kids but obviously a teacher is going to be spending more time on them meaning less for the other kids.

I get why people wouldn't want their child to be at a school in this position and I imagine it's something that someone from a privileged background would be less likely to face.

There is a narrative over immigration that says immigration results in a housing shortage, strain on the NHS and lower wages. It's all lies, thought up by the racist xenophobes who seem to control the public debate. Were it not for immigration the NHS would collapse, we'd not have half the house builders we have now, and study after study proves it has no effect on wages.

As far as I can tell no one is advocating open borders. If you equate having a compassionate asylum process with open borders you need to do a bit more research in to what open borders actually means.

Although, we do desperately need to invest in long term strategies to improve educational and life outcomes in poor working class areas.

The only group who consistently put more into the economy than they take out are EU immigrants.

I'll try and find the data but I have read that only EU migrants from the old member states - France, Germany, the Netherlands etc (not the mostly Eastern European succession states that joined the EU in the early 2000s) are fiscally net positive to the UK. Succession state EU migrants and non-EU migrants have taken more out than they pay in (not that it is just about economics).

As I have said some immigrant groups contribute more than others.

There is a narrative over immigration that says immigration results in a housing shortage..... Were it not for immigration the we'd not have half the house builders we have now

😂😂😂 You could at least try and have vague knowledge of what you’re talking about.

We need 230-300,000 new units per year and in 2017 149,000 were built. If 230,000 and net migration is 273,000, it’s absolutely undeniable that migration has a huge impact on housing.

And residential building is the building sector with the least migrants. They mainly work on large scale construction projects.

"Also if white working class boys are such a problem group, should our focus not be there"

One of the major issues to do with white working class boys, in rural and costal areas, where the underachievement is very large, is the refusal to engage with education, or that being educated is somehow "soft", as referenced by the article Math tried to link her point to ( adn failed).

"We need 230-300,000 new units per year and in 2017 149,000 were built. If 230,000 and net migration is 273,000, it’s absolutely undeniable that migration has a huge impact on housing"

The ONS data on house prices shows that immigration has increases prices by 20 percent over 25 years, but house prices over all have risen by 320 percent, so immigration has caused a 0.8 PA increase whilst other factors have caused a 12 percent PA increase. So neither is immigration the driving force between higher costs of living. You can spout this rubbish all you like, doesn't make it true.

Furthermore, on arrival most immigrants are likely to live in private rental accommodation, and shared lets. You are also forgetting that those net immigration statistics contain a significant number of students, and international students tend to stay in halls, so don't impact domestic housing.

The real determinant of higher housing costs in the UK has been under building since 1980, social changes in how we live and the growing number of private landlords, in 1978 43% of the UK lived in social housing.

My point is immigration is a positive force and then I describe how in education terms immigration is a positive force

Woo for them, so we’ll constantly feed the country a talented pool of people and ignore the working class kids with no prospects. The poverty outside London and the big cities can just be ignored, and we can call those people White Van Men if they deign to get a job.

It’s not an either/ or.

But it’s interesting that people say “the NHS will collapse”, for example, when we have a large number of people stuck in dead end towns who could be put in that workforce. They lack opportunities, resources, people to help guide them. Many towns have had generations of people out of work.

I can’t in good faith say we should accept even one more person in this country, knowing we are ignoring the problems faced by many with eg access to decent education, access to decent healthcare and housing.

It doesn’t feel like responsible citizenship and we don’t have equal opportunities across this country, but many forget that when they live in relative privilege. It feels very class-ist and morally wrong.

How much has the benefits bill risen though because low paid migrants have to claim tax credits and housing benefit or LHA (private lets) so that they can afford to do their minimum wage job? Taxpayers are basically subsidising big business and private landlords profits. If poor workers need benefit subsidies in order to be able to live in the UK, then companies should pay a proper living wage and landlords profits shouldn't be propped up by the LHA floor paid for by taxpayers (because we don't actually have a free market - the Government hands big business and the rich massive subsidies courtesy of the taxpayer as well as ensuring not enough housing is built to increase demand and push up prices).

Better to have a mass social house building programme which would reduce the housing benefit bill but then all the private landlords who vote Tory would lose their easy profits, hence why all this money flows into the pockets of private individuals. It's nuts.

Austerity has crippled deindustrialised areas. I post about this constantly. The Tories have abandoned the working classes. The right wing want Brexit so they can rip up rules and regulations and engage in unfettered capitalism.

I can also care about asylum seekers as well.

Immigration is a positive force. The Tories have abandoned the working classes.

The two beliefs are not mutually exclusive.

"How much has the benefits bill risen though because low paid migrants have to claim tax credits "

They aren't allowed to claim benefits for a number of years after arriving.

However EU immigrants only make up 3% of all WTC payments, but about 8% of the workforce so they are under represented. As they are on all other benefits bills.

Yet no one focuses their attention on the working class, it’s not the easier win.

Yes, I’ve volunteered every weekend for 12 years to an outreach and homework programme. Don’t hear many doing the same.

I can’t bare the thought that even one person in this country is neglected as they’re not a priority. It is class-ist and it’s not just austerity, it’s people’s attitudes.

As the OP said, her sister will pass by the homeless. Hypocrites.

Immigration is a positive force.

I think it is a bit more complex than that. Sure, sometimes it's positive but not for everyone and not for all areas. If you live in Hampstead and you can pay your nanny and cleaner less (because they will work for less) and you can buy a cheap cappuccino from a low paid coffee shop worker, then of course immigration is great. If you are a working class northern plumber who has seen their wages collapse, the quality of life of their family and the decimation of their local culture and homogeneity of language, then perhaps immigration is not so good.

It's very easy to see it all through rose-tinted spectacles when you are the recipient of the positives.

The right wing want Brexit so they can rip up rules and regulations and engage in unfettered capitalism

This does scare me a lot. Ever since Thatcher politicians have been making things worse for the poor. They do need policed by the EU.

"If you are a working class northern plumber who has seen their wages collapse, the quality of life of their family and the decimation of their local culture and homogeneity of language, then perhaps immigration is not so good. "

Ahh the mythical Northern plumber, except for small agricultural areas like Boston, no regions outside of London have even 10% of their population as non British. In most areas its less than 5% EU population.

The idea that immigration in the north is the driving factor behind lower wages for tradesmen is fallacious.

I suppose it's an unintended effect of immigration/globalisation that many employers now can't be bothered with training. It's not the immigrants fault but it does have a very negative on people left with fewer opportunities to make an honest living through work.

The problem is that EU immigration is being blamed for a host of problems that it is not responsible for.

Its an easy target, and an easy explanation for complex problems.

What do we do with towns and cities that grew up around one industry, and that industry no longer exists? For example.

We could encourage a lot of immigrants into those areas perhaps and they could help revive them - more people in areas with falling population can mean more people creating small businesses which grow into bigger ones.

In most areas its less than 5% EU population except when you’re living on the breadline that’s a huge impact. Thanks for saying the Northern plumber is fictitious... yes, no working class outer-London people exist

"Thanks for saying the Northern plumber is fictitious... yes, no working class outer-London people exist"

Strawman, didn't say that. I said the Northern plumber who is seeing his wages under cut by immigration is fictitious, there simply aren't enough EU migrants, or over all migrants in these areas to impact wages.

Boarders = borders

They aren't allowed to claim benefits for a number of years after arriving

I think there are ways round that.

The ones I know all have been given a roof over their heads and means to pay for the rent.

This does scare me a lot. Ever since Thatcher politicians have been making things worse for the poor. They do need policed by the EU.

Well the wonderful EU have been making a fucking spectacularly useless job of that - try telling the people in Shirebrook about all the wonderful rights the EU has given them.

"I think there are ways round that.The ones I know all have been given a roof over their heads and means to pay for the rent."

Of course you do.

However your small range of experience is not reflected in claimant data or by the number of EU nationals in social housing

Go check out the HOC reports into it.