To minimise how often DD stays in an overcrowded flat?

[LindaKroesig]

A couple of months ago I recently stopped my DD (10) (who visits/stays over Friday evening to Sunday evening every other weekend and ½ the holidays) from staying overnight at her dad’s (my XH) house for a variety of reasons - mainly as he was subletting individual rooms out to strangers off the internet. I’ve been playing a balancing act regarding maintaining her relationship with her dad vs. her welfare for some time now but this was the tipping point and I felt I had to step in. I did speak to a family law advice charity and NSPCC for some guidance and they both agreed with my decision.

Initially, I said that, instead of staying at his, it was OK for them to stay at his SIL’s 2 bedroom flat, who lives close by, with her and her 3 kids (18, 14 and 8) when DD visited. I wasn’t entirely happy with this due to how cramped it would be with 3 adults (XH, SIL and her 18-year-old) and 3 children staying in a 2-bedroom flat for the 2 nights every other week, but capitulated as I really do want her to have consistent contact with her father – plus it is nice for her to spend time with her cousins who she (and I for that matter) love to bits.

Anyway, XH’s brother (SIL’s husband) has moved back into the flat after living away for some time, meaning that there will now be a total of 4 adults and 3 children in the flat when DD visits. Obviously, there already aren’t enough beds to go around and it’s been a bit of a free for all to date insofar as sleeping spaces are concerned according to DD (one night she may be on the couch, another she’s sharing with someone) and this is just going to get worse now that his DB has moved back.

My question is ... AIBU to say that now that his DB has returned, staying at the flat every weekend she visits is untenable and that until XH has his housing situation under control (i.e. he is no longer subletting to strangers – which is due to his serious financial troubles and thus being unable to pay the rent himself, plus a few other issues that need resolving) I am only happy for them to have overnights at his DB/SIL’s flat every other visit (I think once a month having a cramped sleepover for a couple of nights at her aunt/uncle/cousin’s flat is probably acceptable) and the other weekend they see each other for the day (it would only be 1 day of the weekend due to the distances involved in ferrying DD there and back)?

I’m really unsure what to do for the best so welcome opinions (yup – know this is AIBU – under no false illusions that I won’t be on the receiving end of some blazing guns!).

YANBU but I guess it partly depends on the SIL and her family and how they feel about it? And how much your DD enjoys her visits?

It certainly sounds less than ideal but at least your ex is attempting to maintain his relationship with DD.

We sorted child arrangements via Cafcass. We both had to be seen to be providing a bed +suitable bedroom for each dc. Sharing a room fine but a bed each.
I doubt you exh would find a judge accepting of the set up /lack of - that he is providing.
Yanbu to stop overnights ime /o.

Thankyou both for answering.

MatildaTheCat she really likes seeing her dad, and he her, but she does not understand the potential implications of his behaviour and the situation/environment he puts her in. For example, she does not understand that having multiple men (who change regularly - they are rather transient), who are unknown to her dad (or each other for that matter) and pay him cash in hand living in the same house is any cause for concern, she has even said to me "oh but they seem nice mum - except for that one that was mean, but it's OK because dad threw him out"! She is incredibly protective of him, he is constantly in some form of dire situation (financial or otherwise) - jumping from one disaster to the next - and I honestly believe she feels responsible for his welfare and happiness (as the NSPCC put it when I explained to them, she has taken on the role of his emotional carer). I am sure that his DB and SIL would be fine with the setup but their version of acceptable living space and mine very much differ.

At 10, she’s old enough to decide whether she’s happy to stay in her aunt’s crowded house or not. Crowded doesn’t mean chaos or neglect.

I would imagine when periods strike she will speak up about wanting some privacy!

I think there’s a possibility, in a couple of years’ time, when she’s a teenager, you’d be on the receiving end of her resentment if she began to feel you’d tried to control her relationship with her father by dictating that both places where she could see him were unsuitable. Obviously there are concerns with your XH’s house because of the strangers there, but SIL’s arrangements are subjective. Since your XH’s financial situation doesn’t seem likely to change, you’d be limiting contact long-term rather than just until he sorts himself out.

ComtesseDeSpair - I hope his financial/living situation will be resolved within the next 5-6 months as he has assured me it will be. I'm not saying I wouldn't be too surprised if it was longer, but both he and I are hoping not. So no, this is not supposed to be a long term arrangement (not entirely sure why you thought it was).

I've done a hell of a lot of things to do exactly the opposite of "control" their relationship - for example, giving him the benefit of the doubt, adjusting plans, regularly dropping off and picking up DD to ensure they see each other, offering him money (even though he was/is in a lot of debt to me) to get things in his house sorted, supporting him, providing him with advice and getting him in touch with relevant charities/agencies who could help regarding how to manage his debt and other issues that have arisen and maintained a good relationship with him myself irrespective of what he put me through in our marriage. All because I want him to be in a position to have a safe, happy and secure relationship with his daughter as I believe that is the best thing for her.

I agree with a PP, it depends on how she perceives the overcrowding at her aunts.

When we were kids, due to DM's health condition, we spent long periods of time living with our grandparents. They would also have our cousins over for the weekend at least fortnightly and often most weekends. So, during the most crowded period, there'd be 2 adults and 6 children ranging from 15 - 1 years old. My sisters, my cousins, and I all look back with very fond memories. I used to share a bed with my middle cousin or my older sister... loved it!

These days, when we visit my sister in her 2 bed flat, we have 4 adults and 4 children in there. Our kids love it, they look forward to visiting... we don't go every weekend though.

HammerHorror I completely agree that she should stay over at her aunt/uncle's on a regular basis - to be honest even if her dad wasn't on the scene I would be happy for her to do so. I just feel that every other weekend is too much - I might be wrong though, I don't know, I need to give this more thought (and am continuing to read all your comments).

I would be more concerned for her worries about his welfare. She needs to be aware grown ups make their own choices etc. He needs to be the one doing the parenting not your dd.

Would you be able to speak to SIL and get her thoughts on this? I would think that your daughter would not mind where she sleeps with her cousins as long as it is safe as she is probably having a lot of fun with them. I would not let her stay at her fathers either with his current situation.

I think YABU - I think once every two weeks at her aunt's house is fine.

Aprilshowerswontbelong I am, very worried - this thread is regarding one of a variety of issues that I have with him, I'm not trying to dripfeed I promise, just trying not to convolute this thread with all of them. Trying to deal with all the issues whilst maintaining a good relationship both between him and DD and also him and I is like wading through mud.

I have spoken to her on quite a few occasions about how she isn't to feel responsible for his decisions or happiness and how grown-ups have to make decisions and be aware of/face up to the potential repercussions (in age-appropriate language of course). He finds parenting pretty hard, either being overprotective (not letting her use knives or go outside on her own) or the polar opposite (the strangers living there being an example).

longtimelurkerhelen I think I will speak to her.

As long as SIL house is safe for her and they're happy with it I'd let her continue to stay. She's young enough that the crowding is probably lots of fun for her. And if you stop it from happening she may decide that you're trying to stop her from seeing her dad. It's very obvious that you aren't doing that but she probably won't see it that way.

If she herself expresses a desire to stop staying at SIL because it's too crowded then maybe revisit, but for now I'd let her keep staying over there with the current arrangement.

What about an inflatable mattress of similar for her to keep at the house for sleepovers? Is there floorspace in a bedroom for that? ( I have the cheap Argos one for camping and it’s pretty comfy!) I think it sounds fun and I’d let her go for as long as she wants to. ( not to her dads house though!)

SIL's house sounds fine. The overcrowding there isn't a huge issue. I'd be concerned about the random lodgers at dad's place too. Its the fact they are transient and unknown, rather than the number though. I'd also say that if he struggles to maintain a well paid job he might well struggle to afford a place with a bedroom for DD. How much that is his fault is up for debate of course, but I don't think financial difficulty ought to prevent him from seeing her. It sounds like he's trying to keep the larger flat, even though he's doing it in a misguided way.

As long as she’s happy at her aunts I don’t really see what the problem is- why is once a month in a crowded flat ok and every other week isn’t? It’s not totally ideal but plenty of people live like that full time.

I had a chat with the SIL - long story short it looks like I've yet again been on the receiving end of some bullshit from XH, but on a positive note the flat won't be as crowded as I thought as circumstances have somewhat changed (plus I've taken your opinions above into account) and she and I are happy for DD to stay over there when she visits her dad.

Now to deal with the rest of the crap :(