To think this is a joke? Companies want so much for nothing

[ALittleCrisp]

Just seen two job adverts saying "Advanced Microsoft package skills is an absolute must".

The pay? £7.80 and £7.85 an hour

This country really has a problem.

@sourt
‘I’d be grateful for the opportunity if I were looking for work’

I think you’re making points about smaller businesses whilst many on here (me included) are talking about large multinats!

I appreciate their overheads maybe high - but when you interview for two almost identical jobs at very similar firms and there’s a £5-10k salary difference - you obviously realise that one company is just being a bit cheap!

@sourt-

There’s also a big difference between ‘long term looking for work’ and ‘professionals moving jobs’

I don’t think a lot of those complaining about low wages on here are long term benefit surfers 🏄‍♀️

However, there is a real issue with benefits equalling (or exceeding) minimum wage for many (there was a thread about this a day or two ago) and that’s disgusting - shouldn’t be able to happen - but I don’t blame those in that situation for making the obvious choice x

you will find there is a massive IT skills shortage about to happen.

I think you're probably being somewhat hyperbolic, most school leavers are far more adapt at using word, email, etc its not just snap chat or instagram.

I hate Gove with a passion, but it is better to teach students CS rather than point and click functions of specific products, especially considering they come across those types of products in day to day school life (email/word etc), someone still using caps lock is a touch typing issue that can be done via CS, it doesn't need word for that knack to be picked up, plus with intellisense getting more advanced in all office products it's not really a great issue which key stroke they use anyway.

Classic example of a piss poor employer attitude who shouldn't be in business, resentful of having to actually pay people to do work. How entitled can you get? Employers like this deserve utter shite employees because they feel like they're doing someone a bloody favour by paying them for the skills they have and feel hard done by for the fact that people expect paid for work they do. So do it yourself then!

Piss poort example of not understanding the wider factors at play with the ready supply of labour, globalisation, minuscule inflationary uptick, costs of automation/offshoring and reducing staff etc.

It is far from as simple as Classic example of a piss poor employer , not everyone who makes the statements you reply to are multinats who minimise their tax take. Step away from you're political drum.

I found similar when I was looking to change jobs: I was looking for a higher level job, but in a more human-friendly, so was expecting pay commensurate with my current salary. Significant numbers of employers wanted to offer 20% less and send to think they were being generous. My recruitment agent seemed too think they were too. I gave them a good ignoring and searched til I found one with a payrise and a more human friendly attitude, but I was really shocked at how poor the pay some people were offering for the qualifications and experience I have.

I do describe my excel skills as advanced, though I feel guilty doing so as they aren't compared to what's possible in Excel - but I realised compared to what people think is possible they are...

There is a massive IT skills shortage and it’s already happening. Word, email etc. is extremely basic, barely worth labelling as skills. If we don’t tackle this the result will be higher immigration from India etc and higher unemployment/low skill and paid jobs in the home grown population. Minus some kids with parents switched on enough to teach coding and encourage them to enter computer science degrees.

It is far from as simple as Classic example of a piss poor employer , not everyone who makes the statements you reply to are multinats who minimise their tax take. Step away from you're political drum.

WTF? Political? Where? Sniffing glue is terrible for people. LOL @ minimise tax take. I'm a SAHM married to a busdriver who's on PAYE. But whatever it is you're smoking, I'll have some of that .

If you work on the assumption that the longer the signature, the more of a dick the sender, you'll rarely go wrong.

The length of the signatures where I work is set by corporate policy. It goes: name, job title, mobile number, email address, office address, office telephone number and, for part-time staff, normal hours/days worked. Frontline staff have to include an extra line with the name of the project they work on.

The email signature is longer than a lot of my emails. Perhaps I should just delete most of it, and replace it with "Bit of a Dick".

I have queried why the email address needs to be included in an email, but was told to stop being negative.

Incidentally, the entry level role pays £8.57 ph, and for that they expect not only competency in MS office and using a database, but excellent communication skills, a full, clean driving licence and a car that you can use for travel between clients.

How they expect people to be able to run a car on £8.57 an hour and live beats me. But our wages have been frozen for years because of austerity: all frontline roles (ie the ones that bring in the money) are funded by health or adult social care, and they haven't been able to increase any budgets for ages.

There is a massive IT skills shortage and it’s already happening

The shortage is not in anyway shape or form in the scope of "Microsoft Office packages", its cs based, trying to conflate the two is insane.

Calm down. I never said I pay poorly FFS. If you knew what I do and what I’ve done for my employee you’d have a change of tune. Actually this is mumsnet, you would probably still find fault.

I stick by what I said. Be grateful for every opportunity. It’s the national minimum wage. Take it or leave it. Surely better than the alternative?!

With this attitude I’m not surprised people are reluctant to set up their own businesses.

WTF? Political? Where? Sniffing glue is terrible for people. LOL @ minimise tax take. I'm a SAHM married to a busdriver who's on PAYE. But whatever it is you're smoking, I'll have some of that

So I'm correct in thinking you have not considered any of the contributing factors when you jumped into the thread and said it was an example of a Piss poor employer.

As for sniffing glue, great come back, your knowledge and contribution is astounding..

Wages have gone down in the last 4 years, i can’t believe how bad wages are now, pay has gone backwards 20 years.

It isn’t conflating the two, IT isn’t just Office. The basic office “skills” can be easily picked up on the job. The true skills needed go beyond this, from decent PowerPoint through to more advanced Excel/Access - this then pushes into basic programming. I have a young staff member who is struggling to use Excel beyond SUM, presumably because they don’t learn beyond that. Plus lacks motivation to do improve despite handing over a course book to run through. I recall learning similar on lotus123 if that’s the right 90s package. Unfortunately if schools don’t cover this employers need to stump up the cash for courses or more time with management to learn. Most employers don’t want to do this so insist on experienced/trained staff.

People working in offices generally look smart and give off a vibe of success because they are behind a desk. But it's all smoke and mirrors.

I don't agree with this, if I knew I wanted to end up cleaning (which is a viable job) I wouldn't have bothered getting a degree. Some people have higher ambitions and wish to become execs, managers & regional supervisors. That's why they work in an office, not to buy suits from Next and slay.

That said, because a lot more people have degrees and are trying to work their way up the ladder, the entry level jobs are becoming over subscribed and as such employers can afford to be choosy cheeky about wages.

It isn’t conflating the two, IT isn’t just Office.

It is in this instance, seem as we are talking about a vague term as "Advanced Microsoft package skills is an absolute must" on NMW which most people apart from some failed gotcha's have understood to be a basic admin role.

The true skills needed go beyond this, from decent PowerPoint through to more advanced Excel/Access - this then pushes into basic programming. I have a young staff member who is struggling to use Excel beyond SUM, presumably because they don’t learn beyond that.

Considering the wide arch of IT, you are displaying why these job descriptions arise. You seem to want someone to have a decent knowledge of Powerpoint, advanced excel and a basic programming language, even though in most jobs they are clearly separated, unless you are talking general 1st line IT helpdesk which is understood worldwide to be learn on the job and to tie into business requirements?

You are never going to teach everyone to be competent across the wide sectors that you have highlighted as the teachers would have a nightmare every 2/3 years.

The IT shortage is not in teaching a specific product, very basic things like SUM, bold etc is all thats needed, its CS based.

Unfortunately if schools don’t cover this employers need to stump up the cash for courses or more time with management to learn. Most employers don’t want to do this so insist on experienced/trained staff.

No they don't unless its very specific, it will be following defined processes and with regards to the OP and past knowledge, will require pushback on IT wanting to upgrade to the newer standard because they don't like change.

TL;DR yeah you are trying to conflate the IT shortage to general office products. That is not where the IT shortage gaps are pointing to as it's entry level stuff.

I find the idea that you should be grateful to have a job quite bizarre. Especially if you earn a low wage and receive tax credits from the government. Why would anybody be grateful for that?

Are the utility companies grateful when you pay a bill?
Is the council grateful that you pay council tax?
Should employers feel grateful that they have competent and efficient employees working for them?

I find the idea that you should be grateful to have a job quite bizarre. Especially if you earn a low wage and receive tax credits from the government. Why would anybody be grateful for that?

If we are going down the political route then there was a chance to object to the goverment subsidising businesses via tax credits etc but it was cloaked under a left wing socialist environment, unpicking that now without considering all the contributing factors is nothing more than wishful thinking and some people having to jump through mental hoops to justify.

But this isn't really related to OP and Microsoft.

Should employers feel grateful that they have competent and efficient employees working for them?

I believe the better ones do, although obviously it's sometimes part of a wider corporate nice guy act.

You all do realise that Mr gove scrapped ict as a gcse in schools.
Yes, most entry level office jobs do need these skills.
Scandalous

Ict was a complete waste of a gcse and should have been scrapped. It certainly didn’t teach “advanced” Microsoft package skills.

You all do realise that Mr gove scrapped ict as a gcse in schools.

Yes. Because it was entirely worthless.

I'm not talking about shitty Ocr nationals.

Actual spreadsheets and databases for a real business model.
Was absolutely valid.

Most school kids these days have MO skills

Acorn, maybe in word or ppt but not in spreadsheets or databases.
Businesses need staff who can at least use these and also create functional spreadsheets and databases.

So I'm correct in thinking you have not considered any of the contributing factors when you jumped into the thread and said it was an example of a Piss poor employer.

You are entitled to whatever opinions you please. I was on this thread before this comment. No, I didn't consider any of the business costs of small businesses I worked for because it's not my lookout, it's not the lookout of your employees, you are the one who decided to start a business. They owe you nothing but what you pay them for. Your problems with are your own. They have theirs, too. Your issues and feeling hard done by that you have to pay people for the skills they deliver to you are what make your attitude totally suck and make people who think like this shit employers because they act like they're doing their employees a bloody favour by paying them for their skills and like they're being ripped off by having to do so. Do you feel the same way about your suppliers, pissed off that you have to pay for their wares when you have overheads and that they should be grateful that you pay them for the products they sell you? Because skills are a good and service just the same. Why be in business with that type of sulky, mean-spirited attitude? Don't like the costs of being in business for yourself, then don't do it.