Writing to Debenhams about men's changing room and no "women's"

[MummaMooMoo]

First time poster, long time reader! Fully prepared to be told I am being at least petty even if not unreasonable, but it's really irked me so after my daughter and I took a trip to Debenhams the other day, I emailed them. Here is the current thread:

Me::
Good afternoon,

I have visited your XlocationX store today, and have a concern.

I was with my daughter and we (specifically, she) needed to use the changing room. The floor we were on had no changing room I could see signposted, and the floor below predominantly sold men's clothes, and had a men's changing room, according to the sign. We went down another floor to access the ladies changing room, but there wasn't one. There was simply a "changing room". I am writing to request an explanation as to why men have exclusive use of a changing room despite women posing no threat to them, whilst women have no exclusive use, at all.

I would like to make it clear that my 6 year old pointed out to me the injustice of this. Discrimination isn't only visible to those who are looking for it. What do you suggest I tell her about why Debenhams treats it's male customers with greater regard than its female customers? This is a question for you as a company, not me as a parent.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Regards,

----them:

Dear XnameX,

Thank you for your email.

I am sorry the service you received in our XlocationX store did not meet your expectations. I am glad you brought this to our attention so we can resolve this for you.

I have called the store and spoken to XnameX today and arranged for them to contact you within 24 hours to resolve your query.

I appreciate your patience regarding this.

Kind regards,

XnameX
Debenhams Customer Services

----me:
Dear XnameX

Thank you for your response, though I would note that the service I received was excellent from the staff and my issue is with the changing room signage and exclusivity. However, I look forward to hearing from the store.

Can you confirm whether the preferential provision for a "men's changing room" but no women's is standard throughout Debenhams stores? I am not happy for a store to answer for themselves unless this is an isolated case, as the issue would then Debenhams policy, not [redacted] store.

If this is standard practice throughout stores or if you are not able to tell me whether it is, please forward my original e-mail on to relevant teams within Head Office, to address the matter.

Regards,

---

Thanks, ladies! ps no criticism on my letter-writing, I'm long past my GCSE English glory days

This post was edited by MNHQ to remove identifying information

I was so worried that trans / anti-men threads were dying out

I’m so glad you recognise that people can’t change sex and this change means that men, who will have absolutely no empathy with women’s feelings, will be forcing women out of female changing rooms.

Her issue is that, as her observant 6-year-old pointed out, there wasn't a specific Women's changing room, though there was one labelled 'Men' -- I think it's pretty clear where the unfairness lies in that.

I've been to quite a lot of shops which have one changing room (with separate cubicles within it) despite selling both male and female clothes, and I've never thought of it as an issue. I'm sure it started because it was a more effective use of space, and I'm fairly sure its been the case for many years. The most recent one I can remember was a branch of Cos a couple of weeks ago, where there were individual cubicles with doors, and also an attendant on duty. I really can't see it being a problem.

@HitItChad

Re "an anonymous person on the internet"; I promise I also exist in real life & you not knowing someone personally is a strange reason to doubt their personal experiences.

That said, is your take on the issue that you just don't care about the inequality of treatment? An "I don't need feminism because.." type response?

Well done OP for actually doing something about this. Looking forward to seeing their response...

Well done OP

I might pop into the very small debenhams in my local town and check out the signage

Dh loves manteray so he is easily distracted

Did the floor where you found the changing room sell predominately women's clothes? If so, I would imagine it was the women's changing room.

So where does a burly 6’ 4” cross dresser try things on if that’s the case?

I really can't see it being a problem.

There are lots of problems. A 10 second google should help you understand.

why men have exclusive use of a changing room despite women posing no threat to them" - YABU for this.

Yes there should be separate male and female changing rooms (but then what do you do with trans peoples?) but not because of men attacking women ffs.

Yep, definitely unequal. They either need men's and women's or both changing rooms to be unspecified. Well done on pulling them up on it, hopefully they'll remove the "men's changing room" sign in your local store - that's probably the easiest route to go down.

I did when you said about "posing a threat", but apart from that I don't think YABU.

I think this particular issue is likely to be a byproduct of many shop managers thinking of their customer base as almost solely women and seemingly only incorporating menswear into the furthest corner of the most inaccessible floor as an afterthought.

The most recent one I can remember was a branch of Cos a couple of weeks ago, where there were individual cubicles with doors, and also an attendant on duty. I really can't see it being a problem.

And if there are only curtains and no attendants can you see that it can become a problem?

Forgive me if I'm missing something but aren't there cubicles in the changing room? So it doesn't matter if there are men and women in the same one, surely?

Forgive me if I'm missing something but aren't there cubicles in the changing room? So it doesn't matter if there are men and women in the same one, surely?

Women aren’t safe from rape by male prisoners in prison. What do you think their chances are in a changing room?

MummaMooMoo I do believe someone is refusing you the right to exist! Do you need a safe place to recover from the literal violence? hugs 🤗

The rates of assault for women and girls is significantly higher in unisex changing rooms. The rates of assault for men is not significantly different in unisex changing rooms. Facts aren't unkind or politically incorrect and it doesn't help to pretend they are.

Rate of voyeuristic crime via cameras over/under cubicle doors and through curtains also high and increasing, and oddly enough it's disproportionately more women on the receiving end of this, not men.

In my experience changing room attendants wander in and out of the changing area.

As for the people who can't see a problem - can't you see that the least that Debenhams should have is unisex changing on both floors?

With regards to the "anonymous people on Internet" comment my son sussed out the deal about Santa precisely for the reason you give. It's common sense that a real Santa would leave lots of gifts to poorer kids and one or two to wealthier good kids.

@Nesssie @DitaVonPeas

I appreciate your point re the comment about threat. Given that the reason sex segregated facilities were hard fought for by women because of the threat that was posed to them in unisex facilities, I thought it worth including in the letter. However unpopular the idea seems to be now partly because of leftist thinking and prioritising consideration to trans rights, men having their own space while women don't is the entire opposite point of the introduction of single-sex facilities in the first place, and I think that's an important factor. If they truly don't care for the reasons we have single sex facilities in the first place, don't have them. But stores didn't begin separating because men needed space away from women, which is all their store is offering. Women needed space away from men.

Thank you for raising this Mumma and I’m very interested in their response should you get one. The proliferation of websites which stream hidden camera footage of women and girls being filmed unaware in mixed sex facilities is Not a coincidence. Where there is no single sex facility available, women are vulnerable. It is very important we challenge those who would give away our spaces so easily.

Mumma without going into it too much that's not actually the history of women's changing rooms or toilets in shops. We didn't used to have any toilets or changing facilities until we campaigned for them, but men wouldn't let us use THEIR toilets (or even have ours next to theirs!) - they insisted we had our own special ones away from them, decorated like the home environment where the weaker sex belonged. Nothing to do with safety.

In some countries (often war-torn areas or refugee camps) there is a need for separate facilities for safety reasons. But in Victorian Britain that wasn't the reason they were made separate, and it isn't the reason they are that way today. Today it's just because that's how it's always been, and how people have been comfortable.

I know what you mean though about your dd noticing that men have something for themselves in your local shop where women don't. It gives her the impression that men are given more consideration, which needs to be challenged.

www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/History-of-Womens-Public-Toilets-in-Britain/

www.museumoflondon.org.uk/discover/womens-right-work-toilet-bathroom-victorian-london-wwi-factory-protest

Update::

No response from the store yet, but this from Debenhams Head Office. Contrary to their spokesperson's public statement, back in June!

Dear Xxxxx,

Thank you for your email.

I understand your concern regarding the changing room for women.

I apologise for the disapointment but this is not a common practice in Debenhams as we have separate menswear department and womenswear department and separate changing rooms too. Debenhams.

As this is a store related issue we have already forwarded it to the store and they will contact you shortly to resolve this issue.

I appreciate your patience in this matter.

Kind regards,

XnameX
Debenhams Customer Services

Anyone else think that it was strange that they only mentioned womenswear and menswear, not women or men? Changing rooms segregated by the gender coding of the clothes nearest to them, then? Fab..

I'll update if & when I hear from the store!

@DitaVonPeas

Thank you so much for that, it was a really interesting read, though both depressing and humbling in equal measure. Women in generations past have done so much for us. It doesn't take from the threat men can pose in unisex facilities, but you have much better informed me on why and how segregated facilities came to be.

I very often think of that quote; "if I'm wrong, educate me rather than belittle me" and you are a great example of that. Thanks!

Anyone else think that it was strange that they only mentioned womenswear and menswear, not women or men?

Aren’t they sly gits! They’re trying to bullshite you and it looks like they’re trying to get out of changing the male changing rooms to unisex because they know it will piss men off. I would ask them to clarify what they mean by their description. Ask them outright if they mean separate changing rooms for men and women or can you use the men’s changing room if you wants to try on a man’s tee shirt. I often buy men’s tee shirts, because they’re longer and more comfortable for walking the dogs.