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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

' A chicken would cost £50'

365 replies

stopitandtidyupp · 06/01/2019 11:46

Leisurely watching ' The big questions'
discussing is London only for the rich?

One woman said if house prices were a chicken then a chicken would now cost £50. Now she meant in London but I wonder about the rest of the country.

I live in the NE and I am struggling to get on the ladder.

I guess my AIBU to be annoyed at house prices and is there an answer?

OP posts:
Calvinsmam · 07/01/2019 09:38

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-41582755

Here you can put your postcode in and find out if house prices in your area are more than they were a decade ago before the 2007 crash.

It’s not an insignificant amount that haven’t.

House prices are ridiculous in the south and we do have a housing crisis but we have to remember that not everywhere is the south, and keep in mind that the country faces different problems in different areas when coming up with solutions.

Bittermints · 07/01/2019 09:40

Sorry, Calvinsmam, I'm in London and got a bit London-centric there. I was amazed we didn't have another big crash in house prices in London then but I don't think we did, probably because of foreign investors. The housing and rental market is really messed up. I'd welcome a return of strong government controls on mortgage lending and rents and a huge investment programme to provide affordable homes, social housing and so forth. One of the many areas where we've lost the plot in the last thirty years, it seems to me.

Calvinsmam · 07/01/2019 09:47

I agree.

If I ran the world I would invest hugely into social housing. I would run in more like a business and the rents would be at market value with a sliding scale for people on benefits so there was no social stigma attached and avoid ghettos. In return for market rate rents you’d get a secured lease, the ability to keep pets, and decorate your house as you like.

Bittermints · 07/01/2019 09:53

Like it used to be, in fact! We lived in a council house for a few years when I was a kid. I suppose I wouldn't have been aware of stigma but I don't think there was any because almost everybody for streets and streets around was doing the same (it was a new town). Met a real need and undoubtedly saved a huge amount of government/council spending later on because decent housing keeps people in better physical and mental health and builds more cohesive communities.

mirialis · 07/01/2019 10:01

nutella - that friend earning £30k and saving £16,666 a year probably has "rounded figures" that are favourable to the story but a take home from £30k is nearer to a £24k take home (£23,782). Extremely tight for sure, but I have a friend who rents a small room in a zone 2 London flatshare all bills included for £580 and walks/cycles everywhere or gets the bus when not possible. She earns £33k and is saving at a rate of nearly £16k a year.

abacucat · 07/01/2019 10:04

It would not be difficult to make house prices fall. But it would also lead to an outcry by those who see houses as investments.

Calvinsmam · 07/01/2019 10:06

abacucat

And what about the people in the north, wales and Scotland whose house prices haven’t got back to where they were a decade ago?

Lazypuppy · 07/01/2019 10:26

@looktothewesternsky

@Lazypuppyand therein lies the problem.

What's the problem? Which of my posts are you referring to?

DisgraceToTheYChromosome · 07/01/2019 10:27

You can get a two bed in my part of the world for £60k. But going up to a three bed near a good school with low crime costs double that. DD and dsil can just about manage the first once she qualifies and he gets his promotion. The second? We'll have to die first.

abacucat · 07/01/2019 10:33

calvins The Government wont make house prices fall because of well off people with expensive houses. Sorry but I don't think that house prices in the north, wales and scotland would come into their thinking.

Bungalowbeth · 07/01/2019 10:34

Haven’t Rtft but part of the problem these days seems to be the sheer number of people in their 20s who seem quite happy with a 10 hour a week contract down at Sainsbury’s etc while I was slogging out 60 hours (bank job and pub work) to find myself.

The entitlement is shocking.

abacucat · 07/01/2019 10:35

But going up to a three bed near a good school with low crime costs double that. Good areas are always much more expensive. You can buy a 2 bed place cheaply where I live, to live in a good area costs way more. But it was like that 30 years ago as well.

Bungalowbeth · 07/01/2019 10:35

Fund not find myself 🙄 ffs.

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2019 10:49

Re: Affordability

In 1997 the average house cost 3.55 times the average median local wage.

In 2017 that ration had risen to 7.8 times the average local wage.

This pattern isn't consistant across the country. There are areas where this ratio is much, much higher.

Taking one authority at random: South Oxfordshire. In 1997 it was 5.3, but by 2017 it was 11.9.

Given that a standard mortgage lender works on a 3.5 multipler this is something of a problem. Yes you can get higher multipers but you have to have exceptional credit and thats still taking a bloody huge risk and it will cost you more in the long run to do too.

Not only this, but the affordability of new housing is considerably worse: New homes typically cost 9.7 times wages, whereas existing homes cost 7.6 times full-time pay. Which doesn't exactly suggest that planning and schemes like help to buy are really resolving very much at all. Indeed it looks a lot like developers are lining their pockets and not building the type of housing stock thats really needed - four bed executive houses are much more typical than 2 bed starter homes.

And given the problem of extending your mortgage, thats also lending itself to encourage people to extend their existing homes thus also reducing the housing stock of smaller homes (and pushing their price up too in the process).

The ONS report which did the figures stated that: ‘Housing affordability has worsened significantly in 69 local authorities in England and Wales over the last five years, with over three-quarters of these being in London, the South East and the East.’

This means that if you grew up in this area, you pretty much can not just 'choose a rougher area or a longer commuter route'. Your options are leave the SE or rent. Your ability to do that depends on your employment options. Not everyone can just completely upsticks and move - because they need to keep a roof over their heads in the meantime or because they have family issues that might prevent them from moving - either needing family for childcare, or caring for an elderly relative or having a school age child and not wanting to disrupt their education.

The increase of the affordability ratio has been so rapid and so widespread that for an average household this has pushed home ownership out of range for an increasing number of people. I will stress the relevant point here being that these ratios are based on the local average wage. So even if you do move, you are unlikely to beat the issue, because you still are going to be subject to the local wage structure of the area you choose to move to. Great if you can, but you are going to be the exception to the rule. People suggesting you can, are talking out of their arses.

So you have to save for much much longer. What has happened is that the average age at which people buy their first house has risen considerably. This has consequences in itself for moving up the housing ladder later on. When you have children has an age limit. What that means is couples are having children and buying homes later - and this restricts their ability to move up the housing ladder. Whilst your career might advice you also have bigger outgoings relating to having children so lenders are less likely to give you bigger multiplers. So you might be able to buy your first home, but there is a fair old chance you'll be effectively stuck in a house which is too small for your needs unless you recieve a windfall of some description. Its seen as a growing issue that has been largely overlooked by government.

Its also been found that reporting / people commenting on home ownership is very misleading. Many newspapers say that people have 'saved' their deposit. Except when this has been examined, what they have found is that, no people have not 'saved' at all. Indeed the wages people are on would make it impossible for them to save the amount they needed even if they did so heavily for a decade - because the ratio between affordability and house prices has outstripped the amount they can save. The misleading reporting that people have 'saved' instead of being helped out by parents or recieving a windfall is compounding the politics of this by allowing this myth to continue, that 'if you just changed your lifestyle then you could buy a house'. The reality just does not hold true. If anything the reality that you will never be able to afford a house, is driving a lifestyle of not saving because 'well whats the point?'

Study after study has shown that home ownership is increasingly becoming more restricted to almost an upper middle class aspiration. Politically this is reflected in how people vote - and why there is a generational divide opening up about the age 40 mark.

I'm a home owner. When I look at local prices in 2013 I weep. We couldn't afford to move up the ladder then. Our household income has increased considerably - more than it has for all our contemporaries - and yet the affordability ratio has STILL outstripped our ability to move up. On 2013 prices we'd be laughing.

Threads of this nature piss me off relentlessly, cos of the 'I'm all right jack' dickheads who come on spouting arse which disproved in all the data that housing planners and the ONS produce. They are actively warning that affordability has increased to the point where people CAN NOT just save or make lifestyle changes or lower their expectations. Affordability rather than actual houseprices is the key measure. In terms of seeing a house as an investment - well thats not something that features in the minds of the current generation of first time buyers. The price increases of the past are completely unsustainable for all the reasons above. Home ownership is increasingly becoming about security rather than a long term investment thing.

The lady prattling on about chickens is dumb as the analogy does not convey any of this. It just makes people think she's talking out of her arse. But she speaks a lot more sense than a lot of people on this thread who know fuck all about affordability and how the economics and reality have changed.

/rant.

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2019 10:52

Or to abbreivate the above to the hard of reading

Affordability based on local wages rather than actual houseprices is the key measure.

abacucat · 07/01/2019 10:54

RedToothBrush Thta is because in 1997 the Government mandated that is all that could be lent for a mortgage. Thatcher abolished those restrictions on mortgage lending. House prices rose.

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2019 10:55

Its for lots and lots of reasons.

If you think its just cos of Thatcher changing the mortgage lending, you are out of your tree.

BorisBogtrotter · 07/01/2019 11:50

First of all the PP who stated that anyone that is motivated could do what she did is talking crap.,

Bought a house at 21 with a 30k deposit and a mortgage based on both full time and part time jobs with a multiple of 5 times or more both of these jobs? Rubbish.

The bank would not include a part time job.

Nor would they give 5x salary to a single person of 21.

I also don't believe this person raised £30k without significant help from family.

abacucat · 07/01/2019 11:57

REdToothbrush Not only reason, but it had a major impact.

AlexanderHamilton · 07/01/2019 12:00

Yes Boris, even though dh was earning more than me when we bought our current house the bank wouldn’t take his income into account because he was only part time.

mirialis · 07/01/2019 12:03

To be fair that poster said she bought at 22 in 2013, before the tougher regulations of 2014 were brought in. Even today you can borrow at 4-4.5 times as a single person, I don't know how being 22 years old affects that though..

mirialis · 07/01/2019 12:11

I borrowed 4.5 x at the same age... but I did have an even bigger deposit and this, of course, was pre-crash when they didn't even check my salary and took it on my word (which included a non-guaranteed bonus that I didn't tell them was non-guaranteed). I know things have massively changed but am still prepared to give that poster the benefit of the doubt in 2013.

RedToothBrush · 07/01/2019 12:29

The ONS say there is an increasing national problem. Yet some person who is now 27 on the internet says people should all just save harder or move and you can buy a house like they did, problem fixed.

Ok.

So tell me, should a nurse be able to buy a house with their partner who is also on a fairly average wage? And if the answer is no, can you explain why not. And if the answer is yes, can you explain how?

This nurse COULD move to X place and get a job there. But only so many nurses can do this before there are no jobs left. They could have a change in career and maybe still move I guess.

But the place where they left might end up with a situation where there are not enough staff to cover demand. Which is fine, because there is no problem with housing affordability.

And we'll just ignore the part about rental property not being secure and rising rental prices too, cos thats completely irrelevant.

I despair at the lack of logic being applied by people desparate to asset the fact that its just lazy millenials who are entitled and how they were so much better and they did it so the 'youth' of today should be able to manage it (Millenials being anyone aged between roughly 27 and 37 so now actually positively getting on for middle age).

Its painful to watch. How hard is it to admit that 'yes, there is a bit of a issue here, and perhaps it needs addressing'.

Its also quite remarkable to see the same people refering to homes as 'investments' rather than just purely as a secure place to live. It tells you a lot.

nomorearsingmermaids · 07/01/2019 12:35

I work part time and my salary was definitely taken into account by our mortgage lenders.

BorisBogtrotter · 07/01/2019 12:47

Mortgage lenders wouldn't take an additional part time job into account

Nor lend 5.5 times salary to a 21 year old based on extra part time income.

Sorry its bullshit.

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