To have got into a debate with a man about anyone ‘self identifying as a woman’ being allowed to volunteer or reside in many women’s refuges

[unexplaining]

I’m currently in Vancouver and was looking for somewhere to volunteer over Christmas. A man at the desk of a tourist attraction I was visiting kindly offered to help me find somewhere when I mentioned this to him in passing as it was quiet and he had a computer. I’d say he, like me, was in his 30s.

We got onto a women’s refuge page and the first thing it said on the volunteer page was that ‘anyone self identifying as female’ was welcome to volunteer. I immediately said, almost automatically, that’s not okay with me in a women’s shelter, and explained why (as I do below, regarding women’s safe spaces at their most vulnerable, and that almost all of them are fleeing males.)

He then told me how he wasn’t sure about how it was in England, but Vancouver was a tolerant place, and did I have any transgender friends, as he did. He encouraged me to meet and talk to transgender people, and, unprompted, told me of an LGBT street in town where I could do so. He said it was proven that transgender people, when scanned, had ‘women’s brains’ and that the idea that washrooms (as loos are called here) were vulnerable to those looking to prey on women was completely disproven nonsense.

To me this has nothing to do with tolerance and everything about women’s safe spaces. 99.9% of shelter residents are surely fleeing from men?

I pointed out that anyone can self identify as female according to the site’s very loose definition - he was having none of it and according to him, no eg MRA people exploit this and there have been zero incidences of violence or threat to women by transgender people in women’s spaces. Apparently this included England and the United States, as well as Canada.

When I got home I looked through the shelters and for many of them, the doors are open not just to volunteers but residents at many of the shelters:

www.thebloomgroup.org/our-work/women-children/
“52 women-only beds; must be 19 years and older and self-identify as a woman”

dewc.ca
Founded in 1978, DEWC is one of the few safe spaces within the Downtown Eastside exclusively for self-identified women and their children.

Volunteer application form for this shelter:
atira.bc.ca/volunteer-application
Applicant
I identify my gender as:

I identify my pronouns as:
she/her/hers
he/his/him
they/them/theirs

www.govolunteer.ca/centres/vancouver/wish-drop-volunteer
wish-vancouver.net/volunteer-opportunities/
POSITION DESCRIPTION:
Our self-identified female volunteers, 19 and over, perform a variety of tasks

Obviously trans people need refuge if they are subject to domestic abuse but AIBU to be concerned this impinges on women in their most vulnerable spaces?

He remained pleasant but insistent and more than a little patronising, ‘encouraging’ me to think about tolerance etc. I have no more thoughts about trans people than I do anyone else in any other part of life, but when the issue intrudes on women’s spaces I care. (This includes women’s sport though I didn’t mention that). I think he thinks I’m some kind of mad bigot and would probably use the word ‘transphobic’ about me.

I will likely bump into him again and don’t know what to say.
Also please put me right if IBU.

I agree with you 100%, What's to stop a predator 'self identifying' to gain access to vulnerable women? OK if they're undergoing gender change, but definitely not if they just say 'I'm a woman'.

I’d agree with you and this is a grey area that needs a lot more work to stop people
abusing the system. And no I am in no way trans phobic.

I agree with you. I cant imagine the trauma of a woman at the hands of a man and needing a shelter only to share with a man.

Karen White.

I do not think that women’s refuges should be open to people who are not biologically female. Same for male refuges.

But then I believe that we live our life In the experience of the sex we are born with including all the gendered experiences, cultural expectations and rules that go with that.

I don’t believe that calling yourself the opposite gender means that you are that sex.

A female born woman who believes that she should live by male gender is welcome to do so in my book but she was still born a woman and has female biology and experience of life. And vice versa.

Therefore if someone wishes to live by the opposite gender norms I have no issue with that. I do have an issue when they want to access places/services etc only open to the opposite sex if that rule is there to enable that sex group to feel able to use that place/service etc.

I’m sure some will view me as transphobic. I don’t think I am. I do think we need to recognise all peoples experiences when thinking about access to places and services not only those of trans people.

I believe this already happens in the UK at the discretion of the shelter - that trans women can stay in women’s shelters. They do have safeguarding policies so I do think the ‘anyone could self ID and get a place’ is a bit of a fatuous argument and isn’t currently happening here.
It’s a very complex topic and I don’t know how is best to legislate to for it but I have met people who are involved in running shelters and people who have stayed in shelters who tell me that it’s not as alarming as it might seems. I don’t know - I can’t base it one my own experiences so I am inclined to listen to theirs.

I never comment on trans issues as its such a sensitive topic.
However i agree with you. This has happened in womens prisons here in the UK. Was it not recently that women were attacked/preyed upon in womens prisons by males who self identified as females? So this guy actually doesnt know what he's talking about. Though this is worse. Abusive men will do ANYTHING to carry on attacking their partner once they have left. Breaking into houses, attacking them in cars and in many cases even killing them.

Its not about inclusivity. Its about exploitation by violent and abusive men who will find loopholes in anything and everything to carry on abusing their partner. This doesnt make a woman transphobic like this idiot was labelling you. It just goes to show that we are still seen as inferior individuals for having a fucking opinion about our own fucking safety.

It's the fact that they're male-bodied still that would affect me the most. They may be female in their minds, but they still have a male's strength, they still get a male's erection, they still have male aggressiveness, they still have a male's height (mostly). I'm all for inclusion, but just because you think you're something it doesn't make you it physically. When you've been beaten by a man, loomed over, sexually assaulted, verbally assaulted, it's very, very hard to get passed that and be forced to accept someone who still represents all that is, purely for the other person's sake. Fear, PTSD, rape survivors etc, aren't things you can just shove to one side because you're told to. Visceral feelings about traumatic experiences aren't just trivial.

There's no point in a debate if either of the parties is fully committed to their position and unwilling to give any ground. All that leads to is an argument which is very different to a debate. In this specific case it seems very clear that neither of you was ever going to be persuaded by the other to any meaningful degree.

For the record, i completely agree with your position. All I'm suggesting is focus your energies on the fence-sitters and those with no opinion because they're currently unaware of the issue. Arguing with people who have already made up their minds will just frustrate you and waste energy.

I've worked in women's refuges and the fact is we have ALWAYS had transwomen staying in our shelters, not many granted but this isnt a new phenomenon. It worked fine, once we had to ask one transwomen to leave (we found alternative accomodation) but we had to ask natal women to leave occasionally too.
Women and transwomen have shared spaces and bathrooms etc for centuries, the current shouting from both sides is harming everyone and i don't really get it.

If your chromosomes are XY you do not have a female anything.

It’s not okay. Woman fleeing male violence need to have safe spaces free of men and that means anyone born a man. Trans women who have suffered violence also need safe spaces but that doesn’t mean they need to be the same spaces.

What about the transwoman who spent years battling to be allowed to work in one? Taking away time and money from a charity set up to help vulnerable children and women?

Anyone who insists on being where they are not wanted is by very definition for the watching imo.

I cant get a link to attatch, but google Christoper Hambrook.

He was a repeat sex offendor whom pretended to be a woman named Jessica to gain entry to a womans refuge.

He was allowed to stay in the refuge where he sexually abused women. Women who had left their homes to escape men like him.

It never happens is just crap. It happened, it still happens, why are people tolerating this BS?

Have he not heard of the man that cannot be named?

twitter.com/BenjaminABoyce/status/1075827530702049280

Nobody (who is reasonable and tolerant) is asserting that trans people are predatory per se.

The issue is that self-ID leaves a loophole wide open for predators to exploit. And even raising concerns about that is ‘transphobic’.

The thing is that he’s a man isn’t it? How many times has he had to look at a stranger and make a split second judgment about whether it was safe to be around them or not?

but I have met people who are involved in running shelters and people who have stayed in shelters who tell me that it’s not as alarming as it might seems.

I've met people involved who have told me the exact opposite. And no it really isn't a "fatuous" argument that abusive men could self ID into shelters, and in terms of Canada it is already happening.

It’s not okay. Woman fleeing male violence need to have safe spaces free of men and that means anyone born a man. Trans women who have suffered violence also need safe spaces but that doesn’t mean they need to be the same spaces.

This.

I must say I think this is made up as gender critical women tend to be fully aware of the situation in Canada and know about Danielle Muscato, for example.

However, yanbu and there's nothing to stop trans people from setting up their own refuges, just like women did in the 70s.

the current shouting from both sides is harming everyone and i don't really get it.

What exactly don't you get?

I was at a Seminar, here in the UK. A Man in the audience said during question time, that there were still places on his, "Gay Man Camp Out". I later said to him, that I'd quite like it (just out of interest).

He said it was only for Men.
I said, well because of Self Identification, it's open to all.
He asked me if I was a Gay Man.
I said well i've only ever had sex with Men and I fancy Men, so yes.

He was out of his depth and said that he'd never considered self identification. I pointed out that, that's the benefit of being Male, you don't have to.

A younger gay man found it hysterical. But it opened up a debate. A Woman who was there who runs Lesbian Services said that she's never had an event were self identificating Men haven't tried to infiltrate it, in about a year. She doesn't have an issue with Trans Women, but it quickly became apparent that these Men have had ulterior motives.

Good on you! No, they never usually do have to think about it.