..to be worried that 1/3 of women aren’t in employment and economically vulnerable?

[windygallows]

ONS stats (latest from 2013) state that women of working age (16-64) only 67% are in the labour market, therefore 33% of women not in employment. That’s 1/3! Moreover of the 67% working, 42% of them work part time.

So that means it breaks down like this:
Women 16-64
Not in employment – 33%
Working part time – 28%
Working full time – 39%
Total - 100%

www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/alldatausedinthewomeninthelabourmarketreport

Now I know there are a million reasons for these stats from women’s role as primary childcare provider to challenges women face finding flexible working, the glass ceiling, lower paid roles for women. I get it. And many on MN will inevitably remind me about the beneficial role women obvs make outside the labour market, from voluntary work to caring. And that work is not the be all and end all. And nor am I advocating for a life of constant work either.

But what these stats mean on the most basic, practical level is that the MAJORITY of women probably cannot cover their cost of living (either they don’t have an income or a limited income through pt work) and are probably reliant on someone for their sustenance – a partner, a parent, the government, family savings, their savings. This means the majority of women are economically vulnerable. Wouldn’t you say so?

Of course there will always be anomalies to this rule - the highly paid IT consultant who will say she can survive on her part-time salary or the woman with a trust fund. But these people are outside the norm. These stats tell me that the majority of women need someone else to support them financially. It’s scary!

PS - As an aside In 1959 52.9% of women were in the labour market and it’s now 67% - not a hugely dramatic difference

I earned more than DH, so my feminist principles bit me in the arse. I went back to work ft shortly after both children, and he was the SAHP who worked pt. Logically it made sense, but I did have a few private, whining, foot-stamping tantrums about it.
We both worked ft when the youngest hit school age.
Women who are sentient, adult individuals without SN that impact on those choices should be responsible for their own decisions. I don’t need paternalistic attitudes about being looked after or protected, and I don’t want my independence compromised. Women need to think ahead and decide what they will do if the shit hits the fan before it happens.

@thebigbangrocks my husband works very hard (I earn very little money at the moment). I have been doing the vast majority of childcare and house work the past few years and am studying full time. I married young, postponed my career, contributed my own savings and moved to a different country. In return he has supported me at this stage in my life and I will support him through retirement (15 year age gap). That was the deal and we’re both following through. Does the fact that it makes more sense for him to be more or less the sole earner at the beginning of our marriage mean that I don’t love him?

No, it means you were dependent on him.

Yes it is very important that men understand that raising children, domestic work and elder care is the responsibility of both men and women

however men don't seem particularly enthusiastic about taking on these lowly, low paid and unpaid roles

I work part time as I’m also a carer to two disabled children, before I split from my husband I wasn’t working at all but now I need the extra money and I need to get out of the house (more important than the money). There’s no way I could work full time as I can’t get child care, no childminder would want to care for a severely autistic 12 year old unless I pay more than double what I would be allowed for childcare costs.

Sorry word I mis- read your post. You're right few women can afford to not work at all.
The rest stands though - we need to move away from the idea that childcare is solely a female responsibility

@Racecardriver your husband is dependant on you to do the unpaid work so that he is free to do the paid work
it is all work, it is all necessary to keep the wheels turning

Your husband has a duty of care towards the children and you are carrying out that role on his behalf without you he would not be able to fulfill his duties towards his children,

I don't go out to work, that doesn't make me a bad person. Employed work is difficult for me, lately diagnosed with a neurodiversity condition. However, I have ensured I am economically viable, single, divorced or ill.

People who have no clue that marriage isn't just the wedding day, it's a legal contract worry me. People who don't realise money is freedom and fritter it worry me (perfectly entitled to do that but there is always an opportunity cost).

My DH is equally unhappy working & our entire life plan is to enable freedom...

Yes word caring job are female dominated but we're not talking about that - that's a whole other issue.
We're talking about men taking responsibility for domestic and childcare responsibilities at home and not leaving all to women.
Thankfully the men I know do this - this allows both parents to work and progress their careers.

@Lovemusic your husband has a duty of care towards your children,
he is not fulfilling it therefore you are working for him, doing his work for free, he should be paying you

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Due to an unexpected multiple birth we need to rethink everything. What has annoyed me beyond words is the presumption that I will give up work. That's not necessarily just my DH, it's been everybody. Even people I'd never think would make those presumptions.

What is clear though is that we are very dependent on each other to pull in enough money and provide enough childcare to keep everything going. Whatever we do I'll view it as a team effort. Without each other we are BOTH vulnerable.

The statement that we normalise women relying on someone is so not true now a days, you can clearly see the increase and women work and balance children more than they ever have!
Men don't just offer to support women as much as they once did, and there are more children in nurseries than 10/20 years back.

All I've got since having my lo is when are you going back to work because it's so normal to leave a child at 6 months.
Also most women in their 50+ ( sad to say) are dealing with illness such as cancer etc so may decide not to return to work or can't.
Plus in 10 years the survey will probably show a decline in men at work as more and more are given the option to stay at home.

It's a shame that more women working ft/pt is still meet with they aren't working enough, they are vulnerable. Same can be said for anyone, if I kick my dp out clear his account he's screwed, no help from the council and would probably lost his job.

I had to leave work when DS was born with a medical issue meaning no family or nursery couldn't care for him for well over a year.

Medical issue has resolved but while I was off work I took on with said Ill child more care responsibilities for an elderly relative and now I'm struggling to fit my very part time job around it.

My brothers and uncles of course aren't expected to help it is just me and my mam. My mams currently waiting results about cervical cancer (she had BC a few year back) if it is back I will have to leave work which will push us below the poverty line.

I love my relative, she would hate carers or being in a care home and I will do my best as long as possible at my own detriment if needed but I should have more help of feckless family. I think when it comes to family members care it normally falls to female relatives.

The amount of economically dependent women who have high earning husbands who have put a lot of money into their pensions, would definitely get the house and have insurances is quite low IMO.

I was talking about this with my friend just the other day, she's 50 now and half, yes, half her friends have found themselves with cheating husbands/being divorced/sick husband and most don't have any way to support a nice house and decent standard of living as they go towards retirement age.

I tell my girls on an almost daily basis that they should strive towards financial independence for themselves. That way they have choices- choice to have children, choice to marry, choice to leave their partners/husbands, choice to downsize/cut back on work later in life, choice if their partner gets sick and can't be the breadwinner.

I am financially independent by accident, I was going to go part-time/not go back into work when my husband's job finished around that time- I had to keep working and it was the best thing that happened to me. The 'bad luck' scenario (that people seem to think is so rare but isn't in the slightest) has occurred to me, and I'm able to work and not have to rely on the state. I have several female relatives divorced in their 40's- the ones that have done well from this are the ones who launched themselves back into their careers and stuffed money into their pension pots/immediately bought a house.

I want to know, when the chips are down, that my children can be provided for by me, and if necessary only me. Not the state, not some 'great husband' guy who might have a mid-life crisis, not a lovely husband who gets sick and can't work. I've insured my own life, as well as my own income so if for any reason I can't work, I have a year or two to downsize and manage my finances.

Wordthe, you said -
however men don't seem particularly enthusiastic about taking on these lowly, low paid jobs,
Have you see the indignant threads from female posters, who are shocked to find a male nursery nurse or male carer in a care home?

I think there is a generational shift perhaps because more women have degrees or the cost of living is so high. Only one of my friends is a SAHM due to nature of husbands job & children’s age. Her husband earns 7 figures but she still plans on going back to work. All of my other friends are p/t or f/t & most only took a yrs mat leave out. The ones who took longer had roles that were easier to go back to; teachers, docs etc. I think it’s very hard to have a 5 yr gap in work these days & go on to find well paid part or flexible work.

My aim is for me to up my salary & days over the next few yrs so both DH & I can do a 4 day week, I think that’s the best for everyone.

I do think SAHMs play a valuable role & support their right to be supported by their partners particularly after a divorce. Hypocritically though I would find it very hard to support my DH if he was at home as the kids went to school. I also find it weird that so many posters say that DH loves working, thrives on it etc. This is seen as a positive but not when talking women.

Ultimately, money aside, work is good for you. A GP told my 70 year old mother, who wondered whether she should retire, that work staved off dementia and was good for her mental health.
Funnily enough, I heard Martin Lewis on his road show programme, say exact;y the same thing to someone who asked him for advice about money and work.
I also agree with the posters who say that it is hypocritical to want a cosy, stay at home life but resent men who want the same thing.

Today 10:53 BlaaBlaaBlaa

‘women are free to be as ambitious as men. It's all about choices. If you choose to be in a relationship where the domestic responsibilities fall to you then that will have implications - but that's a choice and is not imposed. It may be impacted my societal expectations but they should be challenged.’

Good post.

It can be hard to go against societal pressures but ultimately we all make our choices about who we have children with, what expectations and responsibilities we have for work, caring for children, domestic chores etc. The legislation is in place now for shared responsibilities to be easier than they were in the past- eg there is transferable parental leave, rights to request flexible working etc I’m in my mid 50s and paternity leave didn’t even exist when we had our babies. Regulated childcare was also much thinner on the ground than now, and was still very expensive proportionate to income. Despite these factors dh and I worked very hard at getting things as equal as possible, and it was important to me to always work, albeit part time when the children were very small and then full time again once they were in school.

It amazes me how many women don’t return to full time work, or work way below their potential often for years and years, when their children are quite grown up.

Of course if they can afford to do that in the ‘here and now’ it’s up to them, but I suspect many of them aren’t considering the long term hit on pension and earning potential

You raise a very valid point OP

Without each other we are BOTH vulnerable
life requires teamwork, no one is an island we all depend on the collective efforts of society as a whole, we're all working....building society some of us get paid for it some of us don't

perhaps we should think more about the messages and signals that we give out about what is valuable worthwhile work and what isn't and what isn't

Often the most highly renumerated actually have a rentier role in society, living off the work done by others

Isn't the real issue that a lot of jobs don't pay enough to live on anyway. Before I left uni I was very naive and just assumed I'd be able to make an honest living just by getting a job, how wrong I was.

I agree on principle, but at the end of the day someone has to look after the kids. And some of your post does read as if you're advocating lives of constant work op.

I'm a bit suspicious of this current animosity towards part-time work. I think we need more of Harold Wilson's (I think it was Wilson, certainly Harold) vision of everyone working part-time, everyone sharing out all social resources more equitably, including jobs. Rather than the current push to have a split society consisting of a big bottom group of full-time but very low-wage earners and very-high-paid top management. It is slowly creating a slave group.

Wordthe, do you mean carers in care homes? A news report today said that after Brexit it will be harder and harder to find people prepared to work as carers on the minimum wage. I agree that carers, nursery nurses and similar roles need to be paid at a much higher rate to reward them for their important roles in maintaining a compassionate society. It will also help in the fight for equality by encouraging men to take on these roles.

Interesting mrsmuddlepies, a relative was diagnosed with early dementia & a few family members have speculated whether the fact he retired at 50 had an influence.

Often the most highly renumerated actually have a rentier role in society, living off the work done by others

THIS, a million times over.

Ultimately, money aside, work is good for you
Doesn’t have to be paid work though. I agree sitting indoors day in and day out with nothing to stimulate you isn’t good for you but volunteering, learning a new skill or travelling are probably all just as good for you as work is.