..to be worried that 1/3 of women aren’t in employment and economically vulnerable?

[windygallows]

ONS stats (latest from 2013) state that women of working age (16-64) only 67% are in the labour market, therefore 33% of women not in employment. That’s 1/3! Moreover of the 67% working, 42% of them work part time.

So that means it breaks down like this:
Women 16-64
Not in employment – 33%
Working part time – 28%
Working full time – 39%
Total - 100%

www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/alldatausedinthewomeninthelabourmarketreport

Now I know there are a million reasons for these stats from women’s role as primary childcare provider to challenges women face finding flexible working, the glass ceiling, lower paid roles for women. I get it. And many on MN will inevitably remind me about the beneficial role women obvs make outside the labour market, from voluntary work to caring. And that work is not the be all and end all. And nor am I advocating for a life of constant work either.

But what these stats mean on the most basic, practical level is that the MAJORITY of women probably cannot cover their cost of living (either they don’t have an income or a limited income through pt work) and are probably reliant on someone for their sustenance – a partner, a parent, the government, family savings, their savings. This means the majority of women are economically vulnerable. Wouldn’t you say so?

Of course there will always be anomalies to this rule - the highly paid IT consultant who will say she can survive on her part-time salary or the woman with a trust fund. But these people are outside the norm. These stats tell me that the majority of women need someone else to support them financially. It’s scary!

PS - As an aside In 1959 52.9% of women were in the labour market and it’s now 67% - not a hugely dramatic difference

Let us not conflate biological motherhood with pushing a baby out of your vagina. The first doesn't mean the second happens.

I disagree that giving birth and breastfeeding takes a huge toll on the bodies and minds of most women. Sure, there can be complications (as happened with one of my 3 pregnancies). But let’s not exaggerate this to become more than it needs to be.

Tbh I would say that it’s the fact of becoming parents which is the real life changer- ie not just the months of pregnancy and the hours of childbirth but the life long responsibility of raising children to become happy, well adjusted adults. Which is something that affects all parents, mums, dads, adoptive parents.
When I hear women say that having children has impacted on them and their life choices massively, but has barely affected their husband’s life, then that’s to do with way more than societal pressures, it’s to do with the person you choose to have children with and the kind of roles you want to carve out for yourself.
We’ve already heard from one poster saying she didn’t want anyone else looking after her children, not even their father! I don’t accept that that sort of view is a result of biology, the toll of giving birth etc. It’s about a Personal choice - hopefully made in conjunction with the husband, though it’s rather sad to think a father really is happy to just agree to not looking after his own kids

Ah feminism. Women! You’re free! You don’t have to do what men tell you to anymore! You have to do what middle class left wing women tell you to do instead!

Ah feminism. Women! You’re free! You don’t have to do what men tell you to anymore! You have to do what middle class left wing women tell you to do instead!

Pray tell, what would working class, right wing women recommend then? Ignoring the issue altogether?

Ah feminism. Women! You’re free! You don’t have to do what men tell you to anymore! You have to do what middle class left wing women tell you to do instead!

😂😂😂

I think most women would recommend keeping an open mindset, not being judgemental of other women’s choices and not cutting your nose off to spite your face.

Completely agree!

hub yes yes, yes! The most important choice women should make is deciding who to have children with.

I think most women would recommend keeping an open mindset, not being judgemental of other women’s choices and not cutting your nose off to spite your face.

It makes me really sad that a practical issue about finances ends up being met by the following three common responses, always on MN:

1. What I do works for my family, what others do works for them.
2. Don't be so judgemental; your judgement has a liberal/mc bias
3. We don't like statistics or experts

These get rolled out all the time on MN and none of these things further the conversation, just shut it down.

And by the way if 'what people do works for them/their family' then why is there so much female poverty esp old age poverty?

Sometimes a choice is going to be a good positive choice and other choices are the best out of a bad bunch so to speak.

People are too defensive.

There's missing a trick. They should be pushing politicians to make childcare like roads, hospitals, schools so that women have more options and aren't cornered in to staying at home or cornered in to stepping down from roles they'd prefer to take part time work that allows school drop offs etc.

All those getting defensive about women's choices, women's choices are not exactly wide and varied.

windy - I think it’s because behind every statistic are millions of real people with real lives and different motivations.

So, for instance, it’s often trotted out on MN that an key solution to women achieving equality in the workplace would be free childcare for all and husbands /partners being able to share maternity leave. Theoretically it makes sense. But against that is the fact that many women, if they are being totally honest, don’t want to share their maternity leave (as is perhaps reflected in the low numbers of men taking this option up) and even if there was free childcare on their doorstep they wouldn’t want to use it.

I think some people in MN presume that all women are coming from the same basic standpoint and all want the same thing, but the reality is far more nuanced than that. The social and the personal are two very different things.

F1ame I get that but I get tired of responses just being 'this is what I do, it works for me' rather than seeing the big picture. Yes, behind every statistic there are real people but you can say that about everything. Does that mean we can't explore macro ways to address the issue?

F1ame, I don’t think anyone is presuming that all women want the same thing. I’m very aware that some women simply won’t transfer any parental leave to the child’s father, and won’t use childcare, even if it’s handed to them free. Which is fine if that’s a considered choice, agreed with the child’s father.

But the fact is that a disproportionate number of women are financially screwed, particularly in their older age, and there’s something wrong in just accepting that unquestioningly.

In Nordic countries, pretty much most women work and the average price of subsidised childcare is about £200 max a month. I believe this is an economic issue, not just a question of preferences as if you make childcare cheap and affordable and encourage paternal leave which is lost if you don't take it- what do you know, most people use that!

I think there are inevitably pros and cons to every decision in life. If you throw yourself at your career, you inevitably will miss out on parenting, to a greater or lesser extent. That has been the trade-off for my DH, for instance. If you want to be at home with your children, you have to accept the impact on your career. Nobody, men or women can have it both ways.

Flexible working schemes, longer paternity leave and good, free childcare centres will no doubt give people more choice and this is a good thing on a micro level - of course it is. Whether enough people take it up so there is a shift in the macro level is another matter. “You can take a horse to water but you can’t mske it drink”, as they say.

Policy can enable choices and this is always a good thing, but it’s far harder to change instinct. I read recently, that 80% of our behaviours and the relationship patterns we choose are determined by unconscious processes. So yes, it’s obviously unfair that women are disproportionately disadvantaged in their old age, but maybe that’s the “trade off” they were prepared to take to be able to be with their DC when it mattered (in their opinion). We can all have regrets. Maybe their DH’s regret missing out on the DC growing up because they were too focused on the future and building up pension plans?

F1AME - your view is very black and white- e.g.
Maybe their DH’s regret missing out on the DC growing up because they were too focused on the future and building up pension plans? or If you throw yourself at your career, you inevitably will miss out on parenting, to a greater or lesser extent.

That's just not true. For example I work FT and am a single parent. I drop my children off at school and pick them up at the end of the day. Tell me exactly what parenting am I 'missing out on.'? seriously, what?

Windygallows - you drop your kids off at school and pick them up? You are lucky to have flexible working.

I drop my kids off at the childminders at 7.30 am and I get home between 7.30 pm - 8.00 pm. I'm exhausted and yes we are missing out.

Balance is key. I would hate to feel I’d missed out on caring for my children or having a career. Ditto for my husband. It really doesn’t have to be black and white

windy - please don’t get defensive. I was thinking more about people who work beyond “normal” hours, by choice or otherwise. There is no way my DH would be at the school gates, for instance, and he’s far from alone in that. Where I live, 9-3 or work that enabled you to do school pick -up would be considered part-time hours, unless you’re self-employed.

Exactly F1ame.

Doing the school drop offs would suggest that part time hours or flexible working. I don't know any full time workers who have that luxury.

I drop my children off at school at 8. I pick them up at 6. They are in wrap around care but they are happy as they do clubs. I work FT - not flexible working.

I have no choice. It is only me - family lives abroad and ex DP is 6 hours away.

WindyGallows my previous post sounded rude I'm sorry .

I just don't think that full time working is all it's cracked up to be. Dh and I are frazzled. If one of us could work part time we would jump at the opportunity.

calamitycake sorry to hear that you are missing out. That's really long day, I work FT but my kids are in school most of the day so I only missed 2-3 hrs of not seeing them while bringing FT income. Have you looked into other opportunities that offer better hours or closer?

Amintrouble - It is what it is at the moment unfortunately.