Or is this sexism at work..

[IBSworriescanitbe]

I work in a male dominated environment with a lot of mansplaining, even by men who are more junior than me, paid less and have less experience.

Today I made a suggestion and was spoken down to by three male colleagues, they all three quite passionately told me why my suggestion was terrible.

Later on that day another colleague (male) made the same suggestion and they decided to go with it, they didn't pounce on him to make him feel stupid.

Ok I have pmt so always more sensitive, but this really pissed me off. I kept quiet because didn't want to argue about it.

Does anyone else have any examples of sexism at work?

hundreds.

It does my head in!
I have worked so hard to get to the position I am in and I have to put up with being spoken to by men who would no way speak to other men like that.
TBH most of the time I just let it wash over me, but today I was seething inside, what is their problem!

Yep loads. Every day I go to work. We live in a patriarchy.

Call it out every time and ask uncomfortable questions if they rubbish your idea and then go for it when someone else suggests it. Start mansplaining them back — if they propose something knock it back with a carefully constructed point just for the sake of it. Start building relationships with your manager and their boss, volunteer for extra responsibilities, and build your profile so you look the credible one. Then only share your ideas with those senior people.

The above strategy works. It is basically how my female mentor became the CEO of a well known company and it’s how I was promoted four times in the past 5 years.

I like the idea of only sharing my ideas with senior staff. I was kind of kicking myself today when I made the suggestion in that group situation (i.e. to three men, two of whom are massive mansplainers).
I wish I had called it back, but I was afraid of looking like a "crazy woman" obviously I'm not, but there was a previous female member of staff who was basically bullied out the organisation because she ended up with this label, partly for calling out unacceptable behaviour :(
I really like that advice @Cherries101

Sounds like a pretty standard day for me.

Ok I have pmt so always more sensitive, but this really pissed me off

Please don’t say stuff like this. It undermines your argument. You were quite right to be pissed off and it had nothing to do with your period.

It works. As does the knocking back an idea just for the sake of it if it’s delivered by someone your grade or below— don’t do it too often, but do it enough to keep them on their toes. I found myself being immensely more respected if I gave out well constructed critiques of plans and I think that, as well as my relationships with my seniors, has allowed me to survive so many years in my industry.

I used to point this out when it happened to me. My boss always said “sometimes you have to go on a long journey to get back to where you started.” But he never went as far as actually acknowledging outright it was my idea. I work for myself now!

You didn't have to 'argue' about it.

You just needed to ask in a professional manner, why they went with exactly the same suggestion they rejected from you.

Haha yes I know you are right @Ginaandsonicscrewdriver I just notice in myself these things affect me more when I have PMT, but I know that does not excuse their behaviour.
It makes me really dislike them, even though most of the time they are a great bunch of people to work with and we have a laugh, but then they don't take me seriously, question my judgement and try to undermine me, so frustrating.

Would it be weird if I brought it up tomorrow?
Maybe the ship has sailed.

Yep. I have opted out and do a part time job that I need no qualifications for, despite having a degree, to avoid rampant sexism and politics. I might feel like going back for another go at some point, but I cant see it from where I am now.

Even in a music/band group i am a member of I get this shit. My idea this week to sort out a cock up of last week was pooh hooed becuase I am not in posession of a willy, so it seems I can't avoid all of it, unless I live like a hermit.

That's so sad you felt you had to give up a job because of sexism.
I sometimes wish I only worked with women, pretty much all my problems in the workplace have been down to willy waving contests between men!

Yes totally! I’m working on a project where I and a man have different clients. He wants X eg to give a document to a particular person. I don’t agree, which I tell him. He continually says that ‘you don’t understand what I’m suggesting’. Which I do, I just don’t agree. And said so. This went on for about 10 minutes. He also tells me ‘that’s a common miconcepfion’ About my area of expertise (which is not his). Urgh.
So frustrating.

Oh absolutely bring it up tomorrow - and every time it happens.

I work in tiny company with 2 men. They call me the Rad Fem - I have wised them up over the years (they were great people to start with but still they are raised in patriarchy and it shows).

If possible, can you remember any of the problems they suggested with your idea, the reasons they said it wouldn't work?

If you can, then tomorrow when talking about the idea, simply put forward those reasons as your own, and when they shoot them down then act heavily mystified and say "But guys, this is exactly what I was telling you yesterday, and these are your own criticisms of it. What caused all of your objections to vanish?"

See what they say, and stand your ground that this is exactly what you were pitching, and tell them that since it was your idea to begin with, you'll be taking the credit with the seniors.

Can I ask how old you are and vaguely what kind of role you're in?

I work in an historically male-dominated environment (think STEM) and spent f*cking YEARS having to deal with this kind of crap. It's only as I've got to my late 30s that I'm getting any kind of credence.

(NB - no excuses whatsoever. Just interested to see how far (frighteningly little, probably) we've come)

@Sethis It is hard to explain without outing my profession, not that I expect any of the men go on mumsnet!! but I made a suggestion and was basically told it was a waste of time, wouldn't work,, isn't anything new and they made out I didn't understand something about the subject I was pitching the idea on (an area I have a lot of experience in (10+ years) and also a lot more than one of the men).
Later on the same idea was given by another staff member (who is less senior than me, but male of course) and they quietly went with it.

I have also been overlooked for promotions and previously bullied out of another senior position because of a bullying boss who ganged up with my deputy and forced me out. I sidestepped to another department. In my team there are 12 of us and only three women. One woman is a senior boss and amazing, strong woman who takes no shit from the men (she is my role model at work) whereas me and the other women (both middling managers) are constantly treated second rate.

I am in my 30s and work in the media industry..

I used to have a similar problem - I'd put forward a suggestion, men around the table would listen, perhaps even comment favourably, then later in the meeting they'd decide definitely to go with mys suggestion - except instead of saying "Mere's suggestion", they'd say "David's suggestion". Like, if I made a suggestion that was good enough to go with, then their memories must have been playing tricks, it can't have been me that suggested it, it must have been a Man.

I used to have similar experiences although mine tended to be me suggesting something in a meeting, being ignored, then a man suggesting exactly the same thing and everyone fawning all over him like he was a genius. It drove me absolutely mad and wondered why the hell was I invisible.

However, something happened and I don't know how exactly (not very helpful sorry!). With more experience, I became more confident and that somehow developed into 'having a presence'. It was actually my boss that commented on me having a presence in the office. I thought she was bonkers but now I see it. I tend to work in very male dominated environments. I'm also Northern. I think the combination means I can be quite direct (but still polite and respectful!). Frequently I have been the only woman in a senior role, and often one of the youngest too (so sexism and ageism, a double work whammy!) But I know I'm good at what I do. I'm happy to be challenged just as I am happy to challenge but I won't take any nonsense. Or disrespect. And I am absolutely not scared of conflict. If anything, I embrace it. Somehow I think people sense this and they don't mess with me. They listen to me in meetings now. They actually want my opinion (the crazy fools!). Somehow I'm taken seriously. I have no idea what made the change but I know it came from inside me rather than my outside environment.

However, I am also very conscious not to fall into typical female 'people pleaser' behaviour at work. I find this hardest.

I'm also very aware of my body language in work meetings. I actively avoid subservient body language. Woman are generally terrible with their body language in meetings where the mansplainers are sprawled all over their chairs and table with a real 'look how big my balls are' vibe. I have several female mentees and I coach them on this a lot and remind them that they are equals and use the space rather than sit cowering at the table waiting for someone to throw you a crumb of attention.

Somehow this works well for me. I very rarely get a mansplainer these days and I will just cut them off with 'let's keep to the agenda' or 'let's move on' to a more grumpy 'I'm not discussing this' or even just 'no'. Occasionally accompanied by 'the Look'.

This sort of shit happens to my boss all the time. She's an extremely knowledgeable programmer. When we meet potential clients they generally ask me the more complicated/technical questions. It pisses her off no end but she's professional and doesn't show her annoyance to clients.

We've found that younger clients are far less likely to assume I'm the brains so hopefully this shitty behaviour will die out.

She told me that when she was younger she would point this out, and make it clear that she was the brains. Nowadays she just quotes higher prices to the sexist numpties. Hit them in the pocket.

"Does anyone else have any examples of sexism at work?"

The term 'mansplaining' seems like a good one.

Have you ever thought that not being taken seriously and not getting promotions and shuffled around departments might not always be the fault of others?

Something I've seen and put into practice in senior management is not simply what the idea is but how it's put across. A good idea put over weakly will be bested by a mediocre idea put across well.

I decided to move departments due to bullying boss.