AIBU in expecting the school to do something more?

[Frustratedandannoyed101]

SEN child has been being physically violent and verbally aggressive to my child (and others in the class) and school don't seem to be doing anything at all.

They are making all the right noises, but this has been going on for over a year now and has really ramped up over the last few months. My child is still reporting something almost everyday, from being called ugly and stupid, to having those things screamed in their face, to being chased around the playground and attacked.

The kids were originally friends but the aggression started when the other child got very possessive over mine. My child eventually came to me in tears saying she hadn't been able to play with anyone else for weeks.

This was last year. School kept them apart in class to encourage less reliance on the friendship and give my child a break but to allow friendship to continue.

For one reason or another, this has stopped working. My child is now being sought out and the attacks have escalated. Other children are also being attacked but not to the same degree - the class have normalised this behaviour to a certain degree.

Teachers don't seem to know what to do - the kids are told to stay away from each other but my child is followed around the playground, waited for by lockers, etc.

Teachers have told my child off for not staying away well enough. They are also considering introducing a system where the other child has a sign up saying if the other kids can approach them or not... which seems like a lot of responsibility to give an 8yo child with additional needs.

I genuinely don't know if I'm being unreasonable or if I'm just at the end of my tether with it all, but I don't think my child should have to be looking over their shoulder all the time.

I have a meeting with the school later today to discuss the fact that nothing has changed since the last meeting.

What can I realistically ask them to do? I think the child needs a 1 to 1 (they used to have one) but cuts, etc.

Keeping this short for the sake of making it readable but happy to answer any questions.

Would it help to express your concerns to the Governors? And if not move your child, it must be terrifying to be a child in that situation.

No advice but how infuriating!! Sen children should be where they're getting their own needs met! It's really not fair to be impacting on the education of either child!!

I really don’t understand how you could still love the school if you’re child is being continually attacked and nothing is being done.
Your dc is 8 so no problems regarding exams and preparation so could settle in quiet quickly without too many issues.

I also have a child with SEN. I would be asking how they are safeguarding your child.

With respect it isn’t your issue to solve this child’s problem.

I would also write down recap of meeting and email it to the office on the basis of what they started they would do.

Paper trails are much better for action .

Assuming there is another meeting I would be writing a list of concerns about your own child.

Sorry I looked and might have missed the ages - children over 10 are legally responsible for their actions - if the school is not doing enough to protect your child I would speak to the police for advice.

Before you go in guns blazing have a chat with the teacher.

Teachers have told my child off for not staying away well enough.

This is what raises a few question marks in my mind. Ive seen it with DD (NT) and DS (non nt) and with other kids. Either they dont have the skills to walk away when they are told, dont understand why a grownup is telling them to walk away now when they are having fun (this was very hard for DD). Often the adult has spotted signs the child has missed.

Or much more subtle, because they resent the time or energy or attention that deliberately dont walk away when they should not that they really get what they are doing. Of course the NT kid come off worse. Sometimes they do want to apologise theyve caused upset but actually straight away isnt the time.

Sometimes its deliberate and they've worked out what buttons to press to get the SN child in trouble. Not saying that's the case here.

They are also considering introducing a system where the other child has a sign up saying if the other kids can approach them or not it may actually be a way of the kid communicating their needs. Its a really important step to try if appropriate.

I'd be checking you do actually know whats happening. Whilst you want the two seperated its clear you DS wants the friendship to continue. I'd be asking (mainly him) why. Id be checking for self esteem issues, hidden confidence issues.

If hes a particularly empathetic child I'd be talking about it not being DS responsibility to make things better. Its too much responsibility for him and he can solve it. Id be talking about how walking away and waiting for someone to come to you can be a friendly act (ie dont go back when the other child might still be upset).

Bare in mind for some kinds looking after the kid with SN gives them a sense of purpose and doing a good deed. Essentially they are getting a altuistic kick from being the kids friend. But then they get hurt which hits their self esteem meaning they want to befriend the kid more.

he cant solve it not he can!

I’m a teacher and SENCO and I’ve seen first hand the impact of having a child like this in class. A whole cohort suffered for 5 years due to violent twins. They verbally and physically assaulted staff daily and threatened their peers. Their peers learned quickly to stay out of their way, don’t engage and basicallly keep quiet and ignore. It was heartbreaking. They had full time 1 to 1 each despite limited and sometimes no funding. Kept away from other children at playtime and lunchtime, often taught in isolation. Staff were on their knees (basically heckled with personal insults whilst trying to teach) but we were constantly told their needs were too great for PRU and they needed specialist education of which there were no places.....until they reached year 5 when we finally managed to get them moved.

No matter what funding is available there needs to be something in place for this child to keep others safe. Often with children like this lunchtime and playtimes are flashpoints as they are unstructured. This is where the support needs to be. Ask for these assaults to be recorded formally and what consequence there are for the child. We log to build up evidence to access support/funding has this been done?
Also be careful about your child been used as a reward for good behaviour e.g. accompanying for golden time. Is she included is social skills groups? Is she happy with this? It is ok to say no.

Sorry for the ramble and good luck x

In contrast to Pigriver ive seen such kids turned around in mainstream. But it took a lot of work from school and everyone in the environment. I have seen it go wrong too.

Alot of what is in the OP is really positive. Safe space to go, working on communicating needs (the signs) that arent reliant on speech. But it does take time.

Thanks all for feedback - I have no real experience of SEN so it's all good info.

We do love the school, my child loves the school and has a really strong network there. I'd rather try and sort this out than move her. The school is figuring this out as they go along as well and are quite honest about that, which I appreciate.

greentulips Interesting that not having that threat made such a difference even though she'd never been targeted herself. It does show that while we think they are ok there are often other things going on underneath the surface....

greenegg We've had almost continual contact with the teachers - two face-to-face 'official' meetings, a few impromtu chats at pick up, plenty of emails and a number of phone calls. There is no doubt from either side about what is happening.

The point you raise about my child not staying away - they actually do understand what they are asked to do and are on board with it, but the SEN child actively seeks them out and follows them around the playground. So my child is expected to look over their shoulder the whole time :(

(This is true for the most part, there are occasions where my child wants to play with them still as they used to be really good friends and if it's a 'good' day then they have a lot of fun. The problem is how quickly a good day becomes a bad day and there is not adequate adult intervention to stop other children getting hurt.)

pigriver That's exactly it, with lunchtimes and other transition times etc being flashpoints. The children are not ever placed together in class anymore so that's fine, but there's a lot of the school day still left at the end of that. What's PRU? All new to me!

At the meeting today they did ask if we wanted to keep the children apart or let them mix. We said to keep them apart until this is all sorted out although to let them play together as part of a larger group at lunchtime etc, if they both want to. (I am conscious of the fact that if my child has to stay away from the SEN child at playtimes then a lot of others will as well, and I don't think that will help the situation at all.)

I will definitely send an email clarifying what we went over in the meeting though, that will be really helpful to look back on.

Does the school say the other child is following yours around the playground or is this what DS says? Its hard to tell what information comes from where. And what i would do is different depending on whose saying it to me.

You need to be more specific on the keeping them apart. Get the information off your child first. Are they in fixed seating eg lunch, do they line up in a specific order, assembly after break etc? Who is your child spending time with at break and lunch. Who specifically can your child talk to if the other child starts following them round?

Actually im struggling with that a bit, because (like Teachers have told my child off for not staying away well enough) It doesn't fit with the rest of the narrative. Im assuming hes playing with somepne else and then the kid comes up and interupts the games. You child breaks away from what hes doing and then spend the play time runnning away. Firstly your child would be better not running away and (to be brutual) just telling the kid with SN to go away. Then telling a teacher. By running away its turning into a gane of chase which is bloody confusing for the kid with SN. Some of which your most effective options arent with the school at all, but with your DS.

But to be honest is sounds exactly the kind of nonsense my DD would come up with when she knew she was playing with someone i didn't approve off especially when it all went predictably tits up.

Either way instead of keeping them apart you want action on any points where they are sat/lined up together. You want a notified named person who your son can report to if hes having ANY kind of trouble with the other kid. You son needs to know this person. You need to make your kids safety someone's direct responsibility, not that you say that to them. Helps both you and them log it and try and fix it before it goes wrong.

It should be someone on the playground, eg diner lady or mid day supervisor. They need to be aware what is being asked of them

greeneggs Both - it's something that has been identified by school and reported by my child.

Am not saying my child is perfect at all but navigating this is really hard for them all. I do suspect that there have been times (mainly after there has already been an incident that day) where it has dissolved into a game of chase scenario. But I still struggle to see what my child is supposed to do when the other child comes up and asks to play. I think saying no would be near to impossible for them.

The kids tend to say yes (they are allowed to play together as part of a group). Then something goes wrong, they report it, are sent their separate ways, other child then seeks them out to continue earlier argument or whatever.

It might not fit with the narrative (?) but that's what's happening.

This is where adults need to step in - unfortunately that's not been happening. Trust me, my child is reporting everything. I have told them to make themselves an annoyance if they have to!

They are never sat or lined up together, the other child is kept next to the teacher in those situations.

Both - it's something that has been identified by school and reported by my child

Then its absolutely horrific and you do need to move your child quick.

The school cannot sort it and are in fact making it worse.

School have told you they saw a special needs child in distress chasing another kid in distress and they did nothing useful. And then told you. they didnt even realise how wrong that sounded?!?!,! They cant even claim they didnt realise he was upset if they've confirmed it.

It doesn't fit the narrative because no decent caring school would allow two children to run around their playground in distress (regardless of SN) and do nothing. And from the bits and pieces you said they seem caring because they are doing the right things. That really doesn't fit. That's not somewhere your child should be.

I have and did (as instantly as i could) remove from my child from similar circumstance. Not because of the other child but because the (special) school had lost sight of how it corrects and manages behaviour. They had stopped caring about kids. It was a pain because i then had to home school him until new provision was sorted at tribunal. Your kid is NT. He can move.

it does fit more with a what a child says when they are pursuing a relationship which they knows their mum doesn't approve of. But if you heard it from school.

Im not getting at you. It was literally those 2 things would raise question marks in my mind. If its not this kid the school os stuffing up it will be the next one.

Im not trying to be harsh.

Thing is it isnt mean to say i dont want to play with you because you hit me yesterday. Thats real life and your kids needs to feel empowered to say it.

No school is going to waste time seperating kids who choose to spend time together in a big group. Theyre going to deal with the fall out. If your kid doesnt want to be part of the fallout he needs to choose not to be part of the group. The thing thats going to get you in most trouble in life is not necessarily what you do. Its what the people around you do. Its a good lesson to learn at primary.

In the end it comes down to this. Endless meetings with the school fix bugger all. Either the school have it and you'll probably have more sucess re empowering your son. Or they havent and they are never going to.

If youve got to the stage of endless meetings with the school, its already finished.

A PRU is a pupil referral unit - small group off site provision usually for a limited time to get kids on track and reintergrate them back into main stream.

Frustrated - thanks for asking . It goes well beyond frustrating and most parents of NT DC just see our DC as a problem and shut their eyes to the issue.

DS1 has extreme anxiety, partly due to his ASD profile but became school phobia due to his experiences. He 'failed' transfer to m/s secondary and was out of school until Tribunal - 8 months of year 7. As the LA wanted m/s and parents wanted specialist school we had to get private reports - about 10K plus an additional 5K for them to attend hearing as expert witnesses. The LA conceded before they gave evidence.

My son went to OOC specialist where he was a weekly boarder. This placement failed after only 5 terms and he has been unable to attend any other school. The LA washed their hands of him and we had to start Judicial Review proceedings with legal support from SOS!SEN. He eventually received a personal budget to fund home tuition and therapy. This has caused delay but he is due to sit 5 GCSEs next summer at age 18. His mental health is very fragile, he can barely leave the house and has weekly hour long visits from staff at CAMHs. He has no life plans and wants everyone to go away and let him die.

DS2 started secondary with a full time 1:1 EHCP but the school did not want him and refused to implement the EHCP. He was signed off by his GP after 6 weeks. A year later he is happy and settled at internet school. I am his full time 1:1 (unpaid) but at least the LA fund fees through a personal budget. He is twice exceptional (also academically gifted) and in this environment his SN is invisible and he is studying for 10 GCSEs in year 10 classes. He excels in all subjects (apart from French) but will probably only sit maths and physics early as level 9 is already more or less certain.

So with the two of them in relation to education, around 10 years of letters, phone calls, meetings, assessments, consultations, reports, legal support and tribunals which cost around 40K in total (excluding loss of earnings) and achieved sweet FA. Also excluding emotional cost.

I am now a full time carer and receive carer's allowance as I can't work outside the home. The stress of having SN DC pales into insignificance compared to the day to day stress of dealing with schools and the LA who not only do not meet need but make things worse and are frequently hostile.

But none of this is your fault or your DDs and it's not your problem to fix. You are collateral damage. But mental health is for life and you may need to act for your DDs wellbeing if the school can't or are unwilling to step up.

greeneggs I don't think playground staff would neccessarily know they are in distress tbh - it's just kids running. Although they do know to keep an eye out for any incidences involving them. It's not mean to say they don't want to play in that situation, you're right - and my child would say it if an incident had just happened. But the kids as a group are actually quite forgiving and willing to move on with things - perhaps more than they should be. I think it's important to strike a balance though.

keepon That's just made me cry. You are clearly an amazing, amazing mother and your sons are extremely lucky to have you to act as their advocate in a system where they are clearly set up to 'fail'.

I've seen this a few times. If it isn't resolved then I suggest you go in hard with the school's bullying and safeguarding policies. The school have a duty of care to your child to keep them safe from physical and verbal aggression and bullying behaviour. This is the case whether the bullying behaviour comes from a nasty and unpleasant NT thug in year 6 who should know better or from a SEN child who doesn't yet/may never be able to understand that their behaviour is bullying. Where the child is not in position to understand this due to SEN etc then it is up to the school to put in provision to ensure that the bullying behaviour is addressed, which may be in very different ways to that they would adopt with a NT child. The card system may well be very helpful in allowing this child to disengage from a situation he cannot cope with. Playground supervision may also need to be stepped up. If you aren't satisfied then go back and say so - the school do have to deal with the problem - too many just seem to shrug and say that they can't do anything about the behaviour because the child has SEN and then allow the problems to continue. This can have a knock on effect down the line on the wellbeing of the children in receipt of the behaviour - being bullied is still damaging even when the child exhibiting the behaviour isn't aware of the consequences of their actions.