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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to consider retraining as a barrister later in life?

41 replies

RedPanda71 · 04/12/2018 00:27

There's a thread from 2011 about this, but not much since and I wonder if things have changed for the better or the worse since then.

I'd be an ancient retrainer (47!), but I do have an Oxbridge 1st (placed 7th in my year), an academic postgrad degree (distinction), an Ivy League visiting fellowship and have had a successful 20-year career in the media.

I know a few silks and am not intellectually intimidated by them, nor by the workload. But I'm (suddenly, it seems) rather old. The question is whether my age would rule me out completely. I do have some savings/assets so can contemplate giving the GDL->BPTC-?>pupillage run a go. But is this a fool's errand?

If not, does anyone know whether distance-learning or p/t GDL is considered as less valuable than a full-time one? The advantage of the former, of course, is that I could continue to earn while doing the conversion.

Be gentle with me, please!

OP posts:

Saucysusieisinbed · 04/12/2018 00:28

Absolutely go for it! I wish I had the brains. You have so much to give and a good few years left to work following training.

ginghambox · 04/12/2018 00:29

Are you a good liar if so crack on.

MilkyCuppa · 04/12/2018 00:39

It’s very competitive so I guess it depends if you think you’ll get a job, and if you can accept the huge salary drop to go back to a trainee salary.

mystifiedinbrighton · 04/12/2018 00:40

OP I have considered this! However, for me it wouldn't;t work because of geography, principally.

I was also interested to learn that they don't earn hugely more than solicitors. FAR and away more interesting though, with the added benefit one wouldn't have to work in a law firm....

Alfie190 · 04/12/2018 00:41

I think you stand little chance of making it as a barrister. Sadly as I am your age and also trying to career change (but not as a barrister). It is a very difficult profession to break into for younger people. The world is ageist.

thinkfast · 04/12/2018 01:11

I'm a solicitor about to turn 40 next year. What you're considering is not impossible - but would be a real challenge. Do you know what area of law you want to practice?

I expect a barrister to have first rate legal knowledge, excellent memory, very quick to pick things up, strong advocacy skills and attention to detail. Of the barristers you say you now have you done any shadowing of them at work to check if it is really for you?

Sadly I notice in my own practice I'm not as fast as I was in my 20s (IT skills etc) and my memory is not as good as it was, however I am confident in my knowledge and advice and have lots of experience to draw on.

You would have to be really super confident in your intellectual ability to succeed in this.

To answer your question about part time study I don't think that this is generally frowned on nowadays - I find it impressive if someone has juggled a full time job with intensive part time study.

Aridane · 04/12/2018 01:18

I suspect it is probably sort of a fool’s errand

What is driving you to considering this?

Vivaldi1678 · 04/12/2018 04:42

Go for it if you really want to do it. Life is too short for regrets! But you probably know how hard it is to find a place in chambers. Do you have any contacts who can help you with this, especially if you can bring clients with you from your previous profession. I don't think age is necessarily a problem - a lot of clients like a bit of gravitas .

Flowerpot2005 · 04/12/2018 05:20

With age, comes a certain confidence in your abilities. I'd consider all the points made by Thinkfast & then go for it. Best of luck!

Snowjive · 04/12/2018 05:58

Your academic cv would catch the eye of most sets. No one much cares about how you do the GDL or BPTC, so long as you pass them with distinction. But a recurrent problem for late entrants to the profession is that you won’t be credited with the seniority you have earned in another profession, or anything like it. Although you are the age of many silks, it will probably be 15-20 years (after call) before you have enough experience at the Bar to attract the kind of work that silks your age are doing now. In the meantime, you will face many years trekking to distant county courts doing humdrum work for low fees. If your current field were tax or intellectual property, you might just be able to avoid that, but otherwise you would need an unusual passion for advocacy, a rare humility and (probably) a financial cushion to cope with such a radical reduction in your professional status. I’m sorry to be discouraging, but I’ve seen this happen several times and forewarned is forearmed.

jeanne16 · 04/12/2018 06:08

My DD recently graduated from Cambridge . She had a few Cambridge friends who have tried to become Barristers. It is so competitive in London it is ridiculous. I am sure ageism will be a factor too. Sorry to be negative.

Mumof1DS · 04/12/2018 06:09

Can you get some mini pupilages to see if it's for you? Are your QC friends able to get you in?
There's nothing wrong with doing the gdl/bptc part time (except if you are in a hurry to qualify, as it will take longer). The issue is the difficulty in getting a pupilages and tenancy after. This is regardless of your age. Otherwise, it would be a whole lot of wasted money.
Is it advocacy in particular you are after? Or is it an interest in the law? If the latter, what about retraining as a solicitor? The job opportunities are more plentiful. However if you were considering that option, you may have to now do the solicitors qualifying exam rather than the gdl/lpc, but I've not read the guidance about it yet so not much advice on it

user187656748 · 04/12/2018 06:18

I'm a solicitor not a barrister. You are aware presumably that barristers are self employed? As a result some don't earn very much at all.

Are you very mobile ie are you able to uproot yourself and family and move to where the work is (probably london)?

Are you prepared for all the travel and the working hours?

Whatever you do don't retrain as a solicitor. That really would be risky - dreadful work life balance for most and there are no jobs.

Mumof1DS · 04/12/2018 06:22

Well the work life balance depends on the firm, I work 8-4 and am out the door at 4, usually on the heels of the partners. But I appreciate that's not the case everywhere.

TeachesOfPeaches · 04/12/2018 06:25

Have a read of The Secret Barrister for insight into what it's really like.

user187656748 · 04/12/2018 06:28

Well the work life balance depends on the firm, I work 8-4 and am out the door at 4, usually on the heels of the partners. But I appreciate that's not the case everywhere.

Its very much not the case in most firms particularly as a junior lawyer and particularly if an aim of the OP is earning potential.

In addition, law firms up and down the country are battening down the hatches in readiness for potential brexit disaster. DH's firm is making all sorts of plans just in case we go into recession (which will inevitably mean job cuts). My firm is in all out cash collection mode and not looking to invest in people.

DinoGreen · 04/12/2018 06:42

Another solicitor here (litigator do work with a lot of barristers). What is your current field? I know of and have instructed a number of older career changers, but most seem to have a related prior industry e.g. civil service background going into public law, tax background going into tax law. This is what made them attractive to chambers.

Agree with the other comments about life at the junior bar (even at an elite set) not being particularly attractive in your late 40s, so go in with open eyes.

Mumof1DS · 04/12/2018 06:43

Point noted, I shall not be looking elsewhere for a good long while

SunnyintheSun · 04/12/2018 06:54

Agree with Dino. You’ll find the transition much easier if you currently work in a specialist field related to the area of law you intend to practice. For example, a medic requalifying in medico-legal law. Otherwise you’ll be starting from scratch and competing against recent graduates.

Bananabus · 04/12/2018 07:12

Age won’t be a factor - I’m a second career barrister (although I was younger than you when I started) and our current pupil also on her second career, similar to you in age. If anything, I have found that having a first career is of real value to a pupilage committe.

The issue is that training for the Bar is generally a fool’s errand no matter what age you are. The vast majority of BPTC students do not succeed. If you do get pupillage, the junior Bar is very difficult to fit in with caring responsibilities. I’m about to go back after a very short maternity leave and I have no idea how I’m going to do it. Earnings depend on what you do so I don’t necessarily agree with PP on that point - obviously crime will be poorly paid but other areas pay very well, even at the junior end

MyLearnedFriend · 04/12/2018 08:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GrabEmByThePatriarchy · 04/12/2018 08:58

They've changed for the worse, in that there's now even more competition for pupillage.

I'm a solicitor not a barrister, but what I'd say is first of all to echo what bananabus said. However good you are, the odds are inevitably very much against you. So it depends how much you'd be giving up for it. Personally I would advise most people against attempting it: the money isn't good, most people don't get anywhere and it's very hard when you're starting out.

My other point is that I've seen quite a few people make a go at a second career in law, others fail. The ones who did well mostly managed to use their previous experience to give them an edge over others. So people who'd been in patents got into IP, medics into clinical negligence etc. And the exception to this was people who'd been volunteering in the area for years before they started their formal training, so they too were effectively coming into it with experience.

With that in mind, I would be thinking about how best I might be able to leverage my 20 years in the media. Because otherwise there'll be nothing much to distinguish you from the hungry fresh graduates 25 years your junior, with potentially many more years ahead of them. If you want to do this, you need to think of a way to make it work for you. Maybe defamation, freedom of expression type stuff?

In terms of the GDL, you can also do it part time at weekends. I think it's 1 in 3? Might be worth considering.

DexyMidnight · 04/12/2018 09:08

Tough one. I'm a litigator at a big city firm so work closely with the leading sets.

Firstly the GDL and BPTC are only hoops to jump through, a good pass mark is expected (not praised) but no-one cares where you study so doing them so doing them p/t is fine (although at your age i wouldn't want to waste even one year).

My advice to you is the same as i would give a junior would-be solicitor or barrister. Assuming you want a good (£50k + net) salary a few years down the line, are you confident you'll get into a top-tier firm or chambers? If not, i really wouldn't go for it. It's too much upheaval, financial worry and stress to simply be making a living at the end of the day.

A junior barrister needs to bill a significant amount (over 46 weeks, remember) to make a comfortable living. There's 20% to pay to chambers, your pension deductions at your age are presumably high, and then VAT and then income tax. Even pulling in 100k whittles away quickly.

Having said all that if anyone was going to go for it, i reckon you would have a goid chance. Your academics and CV sound ideal.

QuaterMiss · 04/12/2018 09:16

Hmm ...

At Bar school I had one or two friends rather older than you OP. As a pupil - fewer. (But there's a massive fall off at any age.) And actually, iirc my former university director of studies joined the Bar some time after I did ...

Having also temped briefly - a very long time ago - at the Bar Council, it's true your impressive qualifications and experience should smooth the path.

But. You are not going to be hanging out primarily with QCs in the next few years. You will be knocking about with people (with similar qualifications to yours) in their mid-twenties. And as a pp said you will face many years trekking to distant county courts doing humdrum work for low fees. And that can be grim. You may be lucky enough to move swiftly into an area of suitable grandiosity - but wherever you go you'll need masses of energy and a thick skin. Depends how resilient and determined you are. And how much money or borrowing you have access to.

MarshaBradyo · 04/12/2018 09:19

I’m interested, what makes you want to leave the 20 year career in the media?

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