To think we’re all doomed?

[hooveringhamabeads]

Was having a debate with my bf last night about this. He’s a delightfully optimistic type, and was saying it’s great that people seem to be waking up to the fact that we are destroying the planet, and there seems to be a shift in people’s behaviour around consumerism and pollution. He gave examples such as the Extinction Rebellion movement and the changes in attitudes towards plastics.

My take on it is that actually, most people don’t give a shit. It’s easy to think they do if all your friends on fb are of a lefty/hippy ilk, but the reality is (IMO) that the vast majority of people don’t think beyond perhaps putting their recycling out once a week. The mindless buying of Christmas tat continues. And when I think of even the most hippy people I know (full on tofu welder types), they have diesel 4x4s.

I am just as guilty btw, so I’m not being sanctimonious.

And from what I understand, the biggest cause of climate change and the rapid extinction of plant and animal species comes from commercial pollution. And whilst the world’s biggest economies are neoliberal, that’s in no danger of changing. Our own government don’t give a shit, that’s for sure, just look at their determination to push ahead with fracking as one example. So even if every individual suddenly developed an environmental conscience, it would make such a tiny difference that it would pale into insignificance if the powers that be and corporations didn’t follow suit.

He’s adamant I’m wrong and the tides are turning. I think we’re fucked. AIBU?

I think it is entirely reasonable to conclude that things will almost certainly get worse before they get better.

However, there are things to consider beyond the headlines. To use your own example, look into the lifetime carbon cost of your hipster friends' 4x4 and compare to some supposedly "greener" options.

Consider also that some countries have made significant progress (I am not saying enough - only significant) and there are others that simply will no (China for example). The numbers involved are so huge that only a global effort will succeed.

For me, the biggest concern is the refusal of the vast majority of people to discuss overpopulation, and the effects on consumption, requirement for services, and requirement for space. This is a huge issue and needs to be addressed.

Yes we are, the sooner humans drop off the planet and stop destroying the amazing world we inhabit the better IMO.

Agree that overpopulation is the elephant in the room.

and there are others that simply will no (China for example).

China is the world's biggest investorin domestic renewable energy.

FunkyKingston So what? It doesn't matter if this:

www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-45640706

and they've a long way to go in absolute terms.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhouse_gas_emissions

Humans are quite clever so probably won't die off completely (minus something that renders the planet totally uninhabitable obviously, and even then...).

I wouldn't be overly surprised though if at some point 8-9 billion people becomes a few hundred thousand or less.

Also AI is a significant threat.

Or to be more precise, the reckless way in which profit-driven companies are in a race to exploit tech for gain, without any mechanism in place to protect humanity / the planet from the consequences.

The possible consequences of AI are some scary shit.

Of Course AI is a Threat to Humanity

AI IS HIGHLY LIKELY TO DESTROY HUMANS, ELON MUSK WARNS

Stephen Hawking - will AI kill or save humankind?

A very large asteroid WILL hit the earth. The Yellowstone volcano WILL erupt. Extinction is merely a matter of time.

Extinction is merely a matter of time

Not if we get off planet. That's the job of humanity.

IMO our mission as humans is to:

• work our how to ensure the survival of our type of life, by getting off planet
• work out how to leave in sustainable peace and happiness in the long term

We're doing really badly at both.

That should be:

• work out how to live in sustainable peace and happiness in the long term

But it could be to work out how to leave the planet in peace and happiness I suppose!

YANBU but overpopulation will the last thing that is addressed.

I don't think there's anywhere else to go off planet

We've not found one with a breathable atmosphere yet have we?

"YANBU but overpopulation will the last thing that is addressed."

It's a difficult subject and the Catholic/Christian Churches, Don t help the issue.

If the Developed World suggests to Africa etc that they need to have less children, it's a ploy to rid the World of Black people.

If Western Women stop having children, we fill up any empty spaces with refugees and they question why they shouldn't, when they are in a lot better place to have children, than many, globally.

Agree that overpopulation is the elephant in the room.

Well soon elephants will be extinct so that'll be that problem solved!

YABU

Overpopulation is yesterday's news. World fertility rate is now approaching population reduction levels. Was a BBC article a couple of weeks ago.

Good news item last night also on the research into carbon capture from remnants of fossil fuel industry. Think in terms of recycling slag heaps and using much like trees.

Hopeful the tide is also turning on plastic pollution and we will go back to using natural fibres and the whole animal.

Otoh there is always meteors, volcanoes and earthquakes.

I think YABU. The majority of western countries have improved massively in the past 50 years. Developing nations are also becoming more environmentally conscious. The desire to be environmentally friendly is there but the science isn’t always. As the scientific knowledge catches up so will the way that manufacturers act. Not entirely sure how neoliberalism is relevant though. Most western economies aren’t neoliberal but even if they were that wouldn’t necessarily make a difference. Illiberal economies are even larger polluters than your average western country.

@funkykingston they are doing that because they are trying to reserve their coal stocks for when global coal reserves run low. They’re also buying up coal from abroad.

I agree it's pretty frightening but there is stuff that can be done.

A lot of it is out of individuals' hands but some things can make a big difference - I hadn't realised until recently how important it is what we eat. If Americans ate beans instead of beef - and changed nothing else in their lifestyles - they would meet their emissions targets.

Apparently the most important thing you do as an individual to tackle global warming is to cut your consumption of meat and dairy - and make others aware too. www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/10/huge-reduction-in-meat-eating-essential-to-avoid-climate-breakdown (And it would actually be healthier for most Westerners to eat less meat).

Yes, a lot of people don't think much about this stuff, but norms can change, there has been a massive change recently on plastic - and that has led to government proposals that might not have acceptable a few years ago.

Re population - yes, agree it's alarming, but fertility rates have started falling world wide. One of the problems is that the population is getting richer which though good in some ways is also fuelling an increased demand for travel, western meat-based diets etc Somehow there needs to be a better standard of living but on a different basis.

A big US government report has just pointed out that climate change will be massively costly to the US economy. Maybe this will create an impetus for change? A spur for massive investment in clean energy technologies?

Anyway, this is a parenting web-site - we can just give up on the next generation?

YANBU

However, its a tricky global issue as many countries and their populations suffered under colonialism and have not enjoyed any sort of decent standards of living until recently. It will be very hard to ask them to roll back their economies and development when there is no evidence that the western powers who have enjoyed centuries of abundance are actually doing the same. Its easy to point a finger at others. So basically, best to start with yourself. Eat less meat. Buy less rubbish. Recycle. Use cars less. etc etc. ALL countries have environmentally concerned citizens so if we can all support environmental charities to mobilize them & help lobby Governments/Business then change will happen.

if we can all support environmental charities to mobilize them & help lobby Governments/Business then change will happen.

Which do you think are the best environmental charities to support?

I don't think there's anywhere else to go off planet

As I said, we're doing really badly at it!

We're getting there slowly though... We have people at the international space station on a permanent basis - they're off planet, literally. We've sent humans to the moon and operational robots to Mars.

That's hugely nearer than we were 100 year ago, and considering the exponential rate of technology, it shouldn't take a whole lot longer.

When we see Mars in the night sky, DS often remarks on how he'll go there one day. That would have been fantasy for me at the same age, but it's perfectly possible he will.

Elon Musk, for example, is aiming for a Mars colony by the end of the next decade. The first people could be there as soon as 2024.

Many plans for a Mars settlement expect a community in matters of decades. The United Arab Emirates aims for a city of 600,000 by 2117. Astrobiologist Lewis Dartnell [sadi] “while the first human mission to land on Mars will likely take place in the next two decades, it will probably be more like 50-100 years before substantial numbers of people have moved to Mars to live in self-sustaining towns.”

SpaceX is aiming for a much, much faster timeframe. Here’s how it looks:

SpaceX’s Mars Plan: 2019
The company is set to hold the first “hop tests” for its Mars-bound Starship in this year, seeing if the rocket can jump a few hundred kilometers.

2020
More tests

2022
This could be the first year that SpaceX reaches Mars. (Unmanned)

“I feel fairly confident that we can complete the ship and prepare the ship for launch in about five years,” he said. “Five years feels like a long time to me.”

The ships would place power, mining and life support infrastructure for future flights. They would also confirm water resources and identify hazards.

2023
SpaceX passengers on trip around the moon.

2024
The plan is to send two cargo ships, alongside two crew ships taking the first people to Mars. They will be tasked with setting up a propellant production plant, combining Martian water, ice, and carbon dioxide to create methane and liquid oxygen to fuel the ships and come back home. The humans would be tasked with collecting one tonne of ice every day to fuel the plant.

In short, it’s not going to be a leisurely visit. Musk stated at the South by Southwest Festival in Austin, Texas in March this year, that Mars and the moon “are often thought of as some escape hatch for rich people, but it won’t be that at all.”

2025
This is the earliest point at which Musk thinks a Mars colony could take shape. He has predicted a timeframe of “7 to 10 years” before the first bases take shape.

This will expand on the work left behind by the first humans. Paul Wooster, principal Mars development engineer for SpaceX, explained that “the idea would be to expand out, start off not just with an outpost, but grow into a larger base, not just like there are in Antarctica, but really a village, a town, growing into a city and then multiple cities on Mars.” The larger cities would offer habitats, greenhouses, life support, and enable new experiments that help to answer some of the big questions about life on Mars.

SpaceX’s Mars Plan: Beyond
By the end of the next decade, SpaceX expects to have some sort of settlement on Mars. Musk has said there’s a 70 percent chance he’ll visit Mars himself in his lifetime, perhaps paying a visit to this developing colony. That is, depending on how the first settlements go — Musk said in 2016 that “probably people will die,” but “ultimately, it will be very safe to go to Mars, and it will be very comfortable.”

From this article

www.inverse.com/article/51291-spacex-here-s-the-timeline-for-getting-to-mars-and-starting-a-colony

In case anyone's interested, getting to Mars could take about 9 months (depending on the position of the planets.

Robotic spacecraft could one day make the trip in only three days, using photon propulsion.

I do tend to agree op. I'd like to retain some optimism but we aren't taking it seriously enough.

I don't want to be rude but Extinction Rebellion won't achieve much. I admire their aims but they are putting energy into things like planning a talk on how if more people took psychedelics they'd feel more compassion towards the world and work harder to stop climate change. It's hippy nonsense.

I still try to do my bit and we do have the ability to make positive changes collectively but saving the world isn't profitable enough right now