To wonder how easy it is to make a living being a cafe owner?

[spanishwife]

I have a great job, but it's not my 'dream job'. I earn a really decent salary and happy day to day. My real dream and passion however would be to own a cafe/brunch spot. I live in a small, vibrant city in Europe and I think it would work well here, but I have no idea about the financial side of things. I have a decent amount I could bung in to set up, buy equipment and furniture, pay the necessary set up fees, do some training etc. I would probably hire an additional person to do clearing up and waiting tables/serving and I would do that also, as well as cooking/baking.

Does anyone have an idea of the kind of money you can make from this kind of business?

This is the first step on a long road of research, but don't have anyone to ask in RL!

Thanks in advance.

My husband is an insolvency practitioner. Winding up failed cafes is his bread and butter.

It does seem to be a fantasy lifestyle idea for people who spend heaps on lovely decor and planning menus but don’t realise that cafes are probably the most brutal of all small businesses. If you want to speak to a cafe owner, go on the weekend or a public holiday as they will be working. They can’t afford to have staff working when they could be. Say goodbye to holidays, weekends and family life.

I strongly, strongly suggest you take a small business course. There is no way shape or form any figures on here could be accurate. We don’t know your city, what you plan on serving, your marketing/ advertising, the specific location you want to be in, footfall, customer patters, suppliers etc.

Nothing people say on here is going to be helpful to you. Take a small business class and learn how to make a business plan.

Then, whilst you still have your job, you can commission a consultancy firm to give you some figures for some potential spots in different neighbourhoods in your city to give you an idea based on your business plan.

You also need to set up your supply chain (who is making the nice cakes, how do you ensure quality) and learn the legal aspects of being an employer in your new country.

Only that will give you some real figures. I’m not try to be nasty, but the fact that you think you can use average income from a random internet sampling without knowing location and other key factors is not speaking well to your business acumen.

Nothing people say on here is going to be helpful to you.

I think there is plenty of decent advice warning op to do plenty of homework on this idea first

My friends are about to close their cafe. Have been losing money for years. Great cafe, only one in the area so captive audience. Work their guts out.

Sad for them.

It is hard to imagine that a working owner/manager, who is renting a high street premises, is likely to walk away with more than the national average wage on an annual basis. Most small retail is like that.

Also, what happens if Greggs moves in next door and you are on a five year lease?

Differentiation is the key, and that usually means upmarket - which is expensive.

List your overheads first:

Rent
Rates
Electricity
Insurance
Staff Costs
Bank Charges
Accountancy

They could easily come in at £50k

That is £1000 per week you need in profit just to stay afloat.

That probably means £3000 in sales, or £500 per day.

At £5 per customer that is 100 customers per day, or 10 an hour, or one every six minutes - all the time all the year.

Yes, Saturdays in July or December will by busy - wet Tuesdays in the first week of Feb less so.

As a business owner in a similar sector, I think you need to be prepared for it not to pay you big. But I find being my own boss and master of my own future far outweighs what I could get paid with my experience and qualifications.

It's hard hard work, and there are a lot of hidden costs that will come up,plus you have to allow for 18 months to two years for it to fully become a place people want to go if you get your product right. You need a USP and oodles of patience and hard graft.

Do your research and take at least a year doing that before you take the plunge.

I'm in the UKand will clear after tax and all costs approx 25/30k BUT I am not a cafe owner, only in a similar environment and it does involve lots of missed family time.

I reduced my hours in a well paying job to follow my dream of opening a retro sweet shop. I had never even worked in a shop in my life or had any experience of working for myself. I can't tell you how hard it is and how different it is working for yourself. If you are serious then please, please take a couple of weeks holiday and go and work somewhere similar to the type of place you would open so you can really see what it's going to be like, I had days of standing on my feet for 10
Hours and only taking £30. If I had really understood what it was going to like then I would of then made a decision based on fact and not a dream. We were lucky to sell it but I can tell you I couldn't wait to go back and work for someone!!

I love righmove commercial property. Mind you, that Leamington one is £300k (and does look swish).

I own my own coffee shop, I've been open for 15 months. It's hard work. I work around 70hrs a week and at the moment I'm not really taking a wage (I have another business that supports me). I built it from scratch, no precedent for a successful coffee shop where I am. However, I have made enough to plough back in and evolve, I'm now licensed, do a bit of outside catering and I've become quite famous locally for my homemade cakes. I'm on target to make circa £30k in the next year, which in the north east is a good wage. I'm hoping to be able to employ more staff in the new year to free me up to bake through the day as at the moment I bake in the evenings.

I do love it though. I've become a hub of the community, made loads of new friends and being at the shop is like socialising, best thing I ever did but you likely won't make anything near a senior level corporate job

It's my dream too, I've crunched the numbers and I cannot see how I could earn a living - rent, business rates, utilities, staff costs, supplies etc - set up I calculated at £10-20k depending on whether can get second hand furniture. I wanted to be licenced which was quite expensive too, plus permission to have events (folk nights and poetry mostly)

DH and I used to work in hospitality years ago, running our own catering business which included a lunchtime cafe.

It was back-breakingly gruelling. Great fun at times, but we worked 7 days a week. Starting early to prep for the day, right through to 1-2am. We made enough money to pay our rent and bills and cover the wages of the two people we employed - that was it.

Fantastic experience and we learned a lot and had some memorable times! But we wanted to be able to buy somewhere to live, to be able to save, to afford a decent car instead of having to buy from the motor auctions, to buy new clothes instead of going to charity shops, to start a pension, to be able to afford to take time off and go on holiday. Most of all we wanted the security of a regular wage.

If you are looking at this from the perspective of trying to make 'good' money, then you are coming at it wrong. The people I know who have succeeded, do so because they are absolutely passionate about it - and they are making a living but not a fortune, especially when you consider how many hours a week they work. It's not 40 hours and then done! The lucky ones take a week off in a year.

DH and I used to work in hospitality years ago, running our own catering business which included a lunchtime cafe.

It was back-breakingly gruelling. Great fun at times, but we worked 7 days a week. Starting early to prep for the day, right through to 1-2am. We made enough money to pay our rent and bills and cover the wages of the two people we employed - that was it.

Fantastic experience and we learned a lot and had some memorable times! But we wanted to be able to buy somewhere to live, to be able to save, to afford a decent car instead of having to buy from the motor auctions, to buy new clothes instead of going to charity shops, to start a pension, to be able to afford to take time off and go on holiday. Most of all we wanted the security of a regular wage.

If you are looking at this from the perspective of trying to make 'good' money, then you are coming at it wrong. The people I know who have succeeded, do so because they are absolutely passionate about it - and they are making a living but not a fortune, especially when you consider how many hours a week they work. It's not 40 hours and then done! The lucky ones take a week off in a year.

Topcat

It is very popular, I’ve only visited three times & the cake is amazing - but almost every other shop in leamington is a coffee shop and really they need to be turning over a million surely to make serious money.

Business rates will likely shoot up on that property when they are re valued every three years..?

Staff wages for 20 odd staff doesn’t come cheap and I know the owner is desperate to actually recruit

As others have said all the outgoings add up

I think seriously you could make as much money with a tea van on an industrial site in the week 6am -1pm and weekends do events

I think a lot of these 'get away from the rat race' jobs involve dollops of fantasy because they are often really back-breaking jobs in reality.

Own own shop- standing for 10 hour days
Have cute cafe- waitress long hours
B and B or RB and B- shit loads of cleaning and washing
Owning a bar- v long hours, some unpleasant customers
All of the above- busy in holiday times so you can't go away!

None of these sound that much fun to me!

@ivykaty44 Please, you are being purposefully obtuse. The context of that sentence is that nothing people say that answers her general income questions are going to be helpful. It is quite clear. No need for that combative nonsense.

Could you look at buying an already established business? You then get an idea of its turnover, costs, profits etc through looking at their books before taking the plunge

If you are in certain countries, don't forget the special rate on to payable to local thug so you don't have an accidental fire..

I know that in some countries your overheads will be massive because unlike in UK you as an employer are paying tax and health/social insurance for employees on top as well. So there is super gross wage, not just gross wage.

I know several owners of popular and busy cafes. I don't know their incomes but all three support a mortgage and young family. They work preposterous hours ( at least 6-8) 7 days a week and struggle to take days off. One is a 'caff', one is a station coffee shop and one caters to yummy mummy types for coffee and cake. I live in a town with loads of independent cafes as well as the usual chains. Coffee shops open and close all the time. Some do succeed though; situation , usp and consistent quality are the obvious reasons. DD worked in a coffee shop that hadn't decided on its market despite being in an excellent situation. The owners lost a lot of money , decorating etc when the weren't sure to whom they were catering. I totally agree with pp who said hands on is the way to go.

What about a foodtruck?

I think the suggestion to take a part time job in a café was in addition to your current job, not instead of it, to check out the business. If you haven’t got time to fit that in with other commitments then you won’t have time to run a café as the hours will be at least that, as basically you’re planning to run it almost single handed (your one employee will need holidays). So you’re planning to work longer hours for less money with no guaranteed income, holidays, pension provision, or sick pay.

My friend and her husband had a popular cafe.

After 3 years he was paying himself £10,000 a year. She helped out with prep and paperwork, but did not draw a wage (she has a professional job).

He was an experienced chef, knew all about menu planning, pricing etc to get the most out of things.

I think they could have made a bit more if they cut back on portion sizes and laid off one waitress, but they didn't want to. They've sold up now. He works in a cafe, and earns more.

Someone I know who is successful running a high quality cafe, cut her teeth running a very successful workman’s caff in a near shack down a road in a run down area near industrial estates. Open for breakfasts by 7 and shut at 4. Very cheap, clean, quick and friendly. Breakfasts, baps and sandwiches. She still owns that but got a very good deal renting a place in a new office development in an increasingly trendy part of town, as the developers wanted the amenity to make the office space more attractive. The coffee,cake and lunches and food are top quality and they are always busy in the cafe and also do a lot of outside catering for local offices. I don’t know how much money she makes but she works incredibly hard. It’s not an easy trade. So many close within the first year. This woman really knows her stuff and is very hands on.

Zoe it certainly wasn’t clear and appeared that you were dismissing everyone else’s advice

I looked into taking over a successful local cafe. Profit was £23k a year.

I drive around oto work in different parts of my City. I often have appointments that it is quite difficult to predict how long they will take, so you end up with 'dead spots' in the day where it isn't worth going back to base and your (alog with colleagues doing similar) do therefore get to know where the 'good' / nice / cheap / quirky / efficient / leisurely paced different cafes are around the City.
What I can tell you is that, over the years, most seem to change hands quite frequently, which suggests to me people think it will be a good business to have, then realise how hard it is (both in terms of hard work and long hours and in terms of trying to make money) and they give up / sell on.
Just my observations - I don't have figures.