To wonder why priority isn’t given to state school children when allocating grammar school places ?

[Hermanhessescat]

I don’t live in a grammar school area but there is back door selection by affluence (one of best secondaries is in a nice leafy suburb) or by religious belief (equally high achieving secondaries are c of e or Muslim). I have no personal experience of them apart from the fact that my DF attended one in the 40s, enabling him to leave his deprived hometown and go to a fairly prestigious uni.
Many posters in the past have talked about sending their dc to private preps then trying for a state grammar at 11 which surely puts said children at a huge advantage due to smaller classes, better facilities and active preparation for the 11 plus.
How come the grammars don’t therefore give precedence to state school educated children who pass then allocate remaining places to those who weren't ? Or have a slightly lower cut off point for those children who attended schools in particularly deprived areas ? I appreciate that’s probably a fairly simplistic idea and prepare to be flamed

All the children at DS's grammar school went to state primary. All the pupils at the grammar school I attended in the 80s were also state educated.

@talkinpeece 1 teacher, 1 TA. 30 kids, mainly from disadvantaged backgrounds, often with very basic English. Kids come form 3 cultural groups, none of the teachers speak any of these 3 languages. Consequently kids get frustrated easily. They are often unfamiliar with school routines as many didn’t go to pre-school or nursery. Little help from home as parents don’t speak English that well, often work long hours, and some are just not interested. What do you expect teachers to do? Magic? They do their best to get the kids to a reasonable level. A native English speaking shy boy is not their priority.

Dione, are you sure? For an Englush Grammar school?

When perusing the DfE tables, I have not yet come across a grammar school where the number of pupils matches the number of pupils included in the 'pupils by prior attainment' total - ie those with SATs results [from state schools]

I'm in NI.

So Yura, you are saying that the intake of these schools is very significantly disadvantaged, with extremely high proportions of EAL, and very little pre-school education? Yet by the end of Y6, 30% of them achieve at avergae or above in aReading, Writing and Maths?

Sounds like a school with great progress to me. Definitely not 'disasterous'. Not what you chose for your child - so what you bought was choice - but not something that was 'so terrible you just had to send your child elsewhere', as you have claimed.

Dione, as I understand it, NI is very different - much more like the English system in the 1950s than the English system as it is now.

I didn't say that parents should do the best that they can at the active expense of others. I'm also part of the great washed (;) who try to think about the benefits to society at large when making choices. Hence why my kids were in a underperforming state school for so many years. I happen to believe that all children should access the same education where possible. However different parents have different opinions on what constitutes the best for their children and for society and it's not my job to judge them based on what I may think is appropriate. As well as this ultimately if a child is not being served by whatever system they are in I believe that parents should put their child's welfare first - for example the nearest private school to me is full of SEN children who have had bad experiences in the state sector. There are many many parents whose children don't thrive in their school settings and it doesn't help the children who are struggling and have no other options if those who do have other options stay in a bad setting out of solidarity.

All the children at DS's grammar school went to state primary.
Time to pull up my copy of the DFE tables as I have NEVER EVER seen a selective school with fully state intake

Yura
Kids come form 3 cultural groups, none of the teachers speak any of these 3 languages.
Hogwash. NO school will have no TAs who speak the first language of any of the pupils
Even St Marks down the way from me which has 55 languages spoken has TAs / parent helpers who can converse with EVERY CHILD

Just admit that you wanted a selective school rather than making stuff up about the state school

Talkin,

Dione is in Northern Ireland.

NI schools and mainland UK schools are not comparable.
For a start there is not a lot of "over the border catchment churn"

The whole grammar school setup is rigged to favour those with most resources, did you really think it was about offering an education to the most gifted or deserving?

As someone said on here a while ages ago, the class makeup of grammar schools would be exactly the same if the entrance criteria was 'ability to ride a unicycle' there would be a comparatively small number of working class kids who were exceptionally naturally talented on a unicycle and the rest would be middle class children whose parents had devoted time and money that working class parents don't have to drilling them in unicycling and or paying for expensive unicycling lessons.

@cantkeepawayforever its a great school for a disadvantaged child. that’s what they put all their effort in. its a disastrous school for a child that doesn’t have a lot of catch up to do as they don’t get any attention. its not their priority. Not a single child in the school has more than”expected” in any area.

it's not my job to judge them based on what I may think is appropriate

Surely it is society's job to decide what we feel to be appropriate and of benefit to as many as possible? So we decide it is not appropriate to create excessive noise; to hit people over the head; to graffiti; to defraud - because however much the person who does this may benefit from it or enjoy it, it is at the expense of others. Why should this not apply to education, such a key part of the country's life and future success?

Yura - who said that? The head when you visited?

Or your friends the teachers there, who would doubtless have known your particular views, preferences and prejudices and may have chosen to agree for friendship's sake?

[Yes, I do know some teachers - not the greatest ones - who do not try to maximise the progress of every child because 'it's too hard'. But they aren't that common, IME]

Cantkeepawayforever society has been debating these issues for generations. Hence why systems are put in place/change over time. I think we should continue as a society to work towards equality of outcome but I don't personally believe that society should impose a one side fits all educational approach. Other people may think the opposite. That's the beauty of us not all being the same...

i think its mean to discriminate against private school children too.

FunkyKingston nails it
the class makeup of grammar schools would be exactly the same if the entrance criteria was 'ability to ride a unicycle'
THIS

Any school with a selection system - god, gonads, gaming a test - will have more of the sharp elbowed in it than the default school

therefore making ALL schools the default school
and resourcing them properly
will save huge amounts of resources, stress, time
and give better outcomes for the whole country

Apologies, posted too soon. So I would be surprised if EVERY teacher in BOTH the schools you could have had places in said exactly the same thing when you visited - and also surprised if there were no places in any other school.

Wrap around care = childminder or local nursery running after school care, IME. Deciding against a school because you would prefer to 'buy the whole package on one site' is fine BUT don't dress it up as something that you 'absolutely HAD to do'.

@cantkeepawayforever more than one teacher. their focus is on getting kids closer to expected levels. they have a majority of kids with loads of catching up to do. they make a choice to focus on these kids and mainly ignore the kids that are closer to expected level, or at expected level, especially if they are quiet. you can’t do it all, not with these staffing ratios. you have to make a choice. the teachers are awesome, but honest.

I too saw Funky's post and though 'I am going to use that line....'

And i agree its a scandal teachers have to make that choice. schools like these should be better ressourced so that they can pay attention to all kids. but they aren’t.

mainly ignore the kids that are closer to expected level

So do not teach them at all? Sit them in a corner, without allowing them to touch or do anything, and with no appropriate work to do???? Never speak to them?

Are you SURE?? I genuinely can't imagine any teacher of my acquaintance - I know one or two... - saying that.

I don't personally believe that society should impose a one side fits all educational approach
EXACTLY
It should provide a Comprehensive approach
within which the education can be tailored to the needs of every child

• rich / poor
• academic / non academic
• late developer / early developer

that is what comprehensive schools DO They meet the needs of a huge range of pupils, not just well heeled academic ones

it is the private sector that most tries to shoehorn everybody into the same boxes
half of Winchester pupils taking maths, chemistry, physics A level for example

@cantkeepawayforever read with them about once every 2-3 weeks rather than 2-3 times a week which they do with the weak children. let them work on their own as long as they are quiet and trying. Do you any of your friends work in really disadvantaged schools? its very different from a mixed school (and a scandal that school ghettos like this exist)