To think there's something wrong with bullies?

[chicaguapa]

Just reading today another story of a child who's died due to bullying. It's so sad and it's making me wonder how bullies just don't seem to care that could be the consequence of their bullying.

Is this because they have a personality disorder like sociopathy? Is it immaturity? Surely trying to understand why they do it would go some way to controlling it in schools, instead of lukewarm bullying policies which are in the main ineffective.

I think the majority of it comes down to unkindness, jealousy and insecurity. If you're not a self-assured person you need to blow out everyone's candles so that yours is the only one shining.

I also think that we don't deal with it in a tough enough way from a young age - some parents are quick to defend their DC without hearing the other side and that doesn't help resolve issues; they all screw up and behave like bullies occasionally - it's how we deal with it that defines wether it continues or not.

Bullying is too wide a term here. The sort of person who torments someone until they kill themselves is not the same as the boss who loses her tempers and is more than a bit authoritarian.

I think circumstances are often the cause of bullying behaviour- there are plenty of social experiments that have shown this. It is in all of us to a greater or lesser extent, (some more than others of course).

Agree Idontbelieve -

PS - I am not dismissing or excusing bullying by the way but I think it is far more complicated than Bullies = Bad versus Victims=Good

I think there are lots of things wrong with bullies, but you can look at 10 kids who are bullying others and find 10 wrong things - low self-esteem so needing to dominate others to feel good about themselves. Being bullied themselves. Lack of control because of home/school/bullying/something else. Total fear of other kids/being disliked/left out. Failure to understand how someone else might be feeling. Going through a normal developmental phase of testing boundaries and power over others. Maybe all these things all together.

The only things all child bullies have in common is the fact that they are engaging in the behaviour - I don't think there is anything parents and schools can do but try and prevent it happening by emphasising kindness, empathy and respect, and then taking it seriously when it does happen and making clear what behaviours are acceptable and where the boundaries are. Also all kids have to have strategies for dealing with being bullied, because sadly everyone will encounter bullies throughout their lives. I'm sitting here at home at the moment thanks to a pack of absolutely vicious gaslighting bullies at my company hounding me out.

It comes down to parents too - some people are very quick to insist their child can do no wrong or not want to train them out of these behaviours for fear of upsetting/arguing with their kids. Children are tiny human animals and it's behaviour we can all potentially engage in unless reined in.

Bullying behaviour is rampant on MN. Snide, spiteful, cruel remarks out of sheer dislike of someone explained away as just ‘having an opnion’, ‘it’s fact’, we’re just being honest’. Does give you an insight into why bullying is so common in schools. A lot of that behaviour is picked up from the parents believe it or not. The problem is society, it’s not schools or the children. What you see in children in schools is a mirror of what society is like.

I think the majority of it comes down to unkindness, jealousy and insecurity. If you're not a self-assured person you need to blow out everyone's candles so that yours is the only one shining.

I was going to say pretty much the same thing, but not nearly so succinctly or eloquently. Especially (but not only) with adult bullies. I always console myself with the knowledge that it can't possibly be nice to have to be them - and unless they actively change their whole personality, personal paradigm and behaviour, they have to live with that negativity 24/7.

But I often wonder if the bullies are remorseful when someone they've bullied kills themselves or attempts to. Or if they just shrug their shoulders, blame the victim and carry on. My impression is always of the latter, which is what makes me think it's some kind of disorder.

When I was at school and bullying had serious implications for the victim in one case, the kids involved were genuinely mortified and took punishment on the chin and really did not anticipate what they were doing until it was almost too late, thankfully it wasn't and those bullies did change, I know that's just one example but today you have the bullies laughing and taunting when their victims can't take any more, they have no remorse and no care for the results.
And I think that as a pp said, it's reflective of society. We don't seem to, as a society, try and bring teens down to earth at some point and gently let them know that they're not the centre of the universe. I noticed this in the generation that's now got teen children themselves, they don't seem to have grown out of the 'me me me' phase. And they're now adults, bringing up children of their own with the same mindset.
Children were treated very differently, even 20 years ago, and changes happened and rightly so because awful things went on, but I think the pendulum has swung too far the other way and it's showing through now in bullying, anti social behaviour and crime. We have a generation of now grown children that think they are the only important person, and that's being passed on to the next generation now.

For instance, I was no angel, as a group of teens we drank 'up the pit' on a Friday night, we were well away from houses, not because we were considerate, but because we were scared of getting caught, because we respected adults and especially the police! They did 'raid' a few times and a few of us were carted home in the back of the van. It was terrifying! My parents grounded me for my natural born (still technically grounded now I think!) And school dragged us all out in assembly and we got an almighty bollocking for disgracing the school and ourselves and had lunchtime detentions, as well as one after school a week until the end of term. No, it was not pleasant to be humiliated in front of everyone, but we, as a group, deserved it. It was a warning, because the police basically delivered us home, and expected parents and the school to deal with it - they did.
Now I see kids drinking openly, in the street, and the police can do nothing if they're under 18, except confiscate, and then they/the parents just buy more. Even if not drinking they openly taunt the police, knowing there's very little that they can do even if a law is broken, because there'll be little in the way of punishment. Certainly not enough to change behaviour.

There needs to be a middle ground found. Between the old school slipper and cane and today's free for all, so that punishment is severe enough that you respect others and the police/justice system, and don't do it in the first place, but not so far that children are abused or back to having no rights and not being listened to at all.

Any doubt that bullying can have tragic consequences go to thepetitionsite.com and look up Arthur's law. Made me cry reading that today.
A young boy was bullied most of his life and developed depression and committed suicide. His mum Jacqueline Peebles is campaigning for bullying to be treated as a crime.
My own son suffered horrendously as a teen and ended up depressed and suicidal. He had to be home tutored and we moved house and got him into a college which really helped. It's 15 years ago now but I still remember the isolation and the feeling that no-one took me seriously.
He s 30 now and popular with a group of friends he's had since college but he's still quiet and prone to depression.
Honestly if I saw those boys again I would still want to punch them!

If we're talking about schoolchildren, bullies are usually kids who don't think of consequences.
But I wonder what about the child's parents, other adults who have responsibility for their well-being? Of course, when children finally kill themselves, its too late to say that someone has fucked up as a parent, because parents are victims too.

I think that some people are so wrapped up in themselves they don't or won't see the effect they're actually having on some people.
Some will refuse to see how damaging bullying is and when the victim does end their life they conveniently just switch off to what they have contributed to.
Some will also refuse to see how damaging it is when they persist in low level silly banter which can cause so much annoyance to someone they snap and then are told 'Im just having a laugh, lighten up' when actually the truth is 'No your an absolute pain, your driving me mad even though I've asked you to stop over and over but you wont listen and now I'm getting upset and angry, please just back off and leave me in peace!'
I think there is a very broad spectrum of people with a certain mind set ranging from the annoying people who drive you round the bend right up to the nasty bullies and all of them probably just don't get what they do is just not good.

what I experienced myself, I went to a shitty school where bullying was a norm and "responsible" instigated it. So everybody was a bully or a victim depending on circumstance. Basically, why bother being kind and nice to others, when its being a little shit was rewarded with popularity.

*"responsible" adults

Bullying has made me loose faith in humans..i now beleive we are a bad species.

Many of you have made so many valid points and I agree with so much of this.

I have just started home schooling for my 14 year old DD. She has been bullied, physically attacked, taunted relentlessly and generally treated like crap by many of her peers. This has gone on for 3 years. She took an overdose of tablets after she was attacked by another pupil.

I have had countless meetings with the school and I have finally realised that nothing can be done to stop this. Yes they have an anti bullying policy but it's just ticking the box. It means nothing. I felt we had reached a point where we had no option but to home school.

I feel totally depressed that the mean, malicious pupils who made her life a misery are popular. The fact that some of the "nice" girls joined in with them is making me lose faith in the human race.

I feel something is going seriously wrong in society. I don't know if it's social media, if it's the obsession with fitting in, if it's that many parents turn a blind eye to how their children behave or that teachers have less and less control. I truly believe that I have contributed to this situation by always encouraging my DD to be kind and have empathy. It has somehow made her a target and appear weak to others. I'm certain that if she had been horrible to others with no thought of the consequences, she would have thrived in high school.

DS2 could easily become a bully. He gets a buzz from freaking his DSis out. The more attention he gets for it, the more he does it. I have to send DD on ahead when we're walking to school.

I was a teacher and although many colleagues did take bullying seriously, it was not uncommon to hear colleagues blame the victim for the bullying. I never quite understood that but found it very worrying and often wondered whether they were once the bullies...

Bullying is inherent to human nature; indeed, it’s inherent to the nature of any mammal which lives in social groups. That’s not to minimise it; but bullying is generally borne out of social hierarchy and the need of “pack leaders” to assert their rank; create and maintain group status; affirm a social order and hierarchy; make sure that those lower down the pecking order know how they have to behave if they want to avoid becoming the target of the bullying. It isn’t a personality disorder or a sign of evil - some reassurance for the MN parents of DC who are bullies (because there will be plenty.) It’s cruel, and relies on a lot of otherwise good people being too afraid to say or do anything - like much negative human behaviour. It also often runs in cycles - many victims of bullying will gladly bully weaker others or join in with the bullying as they’re jut glad it isn’t currently their turn.

I was a teacher and although many colleagues did take bullying seriously, it was not uncommon to hear colleagues blame the victim for the bullying.

This was my experience at school. The bullies were the popular girls (popular being loud and pretty, can't say many other pupils liked them) and I was odd. Saying nasty things to the odd kids was somehow acceptable.

I don't think all teachers are like that, but when the victims are repeatedly laughed at by their peers and other teachers, they're going to stop asking for help.

Nowadays I embrace my oddness and bollocks to them, but I can't deny the lasting damage they left.

Comtesse okay, so how do I stop my DS being a bully? He gets a real buzz from DD screaming and crying. She can't ignore it, and watches him like a hawk when she thinks he's going to do something.

I was a bully. There was certainly something wrong with me. I was totally disassociated due to emotional neglect and had little capacity to feel much in the way of emotions or empathy. As I grew up and healed I was totally mortified at what I had done and never bullied again. Now I abhor bullying in all shapes and forms.

I think if I had had someone who cared about my emotions, gave me affection consistently, and affirmed my existence and my worth, I would not have done it.

If I have to be totally honest & although I hate to admit it, looking back to my high school days there were definitely times my actions would of been considered at the least unkind. I laughed at (the same) people having the piss taken out of them relentlessly & wound people up at times as well. I would never, ever dream of doing that to anyone now, especially a vulnerable person. In fact I’d be the one stepping in to stop it & it would hurt my heart to see it. So I definitely think age is a huge factor, imarurity, not realising the consequences of your actions & lacking in empathy. I would like to think a lot of these kids will grow up mortified by their actions as teenagers, but of course that doesn’t help the kids at the time, unfortunately.

We've had to remove ds2 from school due to him being bullied. I was bullied all through secondary school. Dh was also bullied at school, although not as relentlessly as me or ds. What we have in common is that we're all aspergers, we're quiet, but have healthy egos and don't need to put others down. We're not rich, good looking or confident. I don't think people have much respect for introverted people and see us as fair game tbh.

I think bullying is inbuilt in humans and reflects a sort of pecking order. The bullies I've encountered tend to be highly socially focused and place a great deal of importance on their place in the social order. They tend to be extroverted, not particularly intelligent and have weak egos. I don't think they really like themselves or others and have a low eq. They also seem to enjoy destroying things rather than creating things.

In my experience, bullies aren't someone you can reason with as they often lack empathy and may even lack a conscience. I find it's best not to have any contact with them as they're frequently not held to account and just spend their time steamrollering their way through life with everyone allowing them to just continue.

It's wiser just to change jobs, schools, house etc. than to try and find a way through. Bullies always seem to win. Self preservation is the only solution. I tend to live my life with one eye on the backdoor so to speak, so I know I can escape from a bully if unnecessary.

I am not condoning or minimising what bullies do, but as a society we do simplify bullying. It's not as black and white as X is a nice kind person, and Y is a bad bully. Y may show bullying behaviour in a particular context and appear to be otherwise a good and pleasant person in other contexts.

Bullying behaviour is usually a symptom of some other underlying issue. People are rarely unkind or cruel purely for the fun of it and there often is some kind of control, confidence, emotional or social issue triggering it. In children, it can be social immaturity. Friendship changes can descend into bullying if they don't have the social maturity to deal with problems with reasoning. Identifying and dealing with the trigger is better than just demonising the person and them going on to repeat or develop their behaviour on a new victim because that trigger still exists.

Online bullying is problematic because the bully is removed from the consequences of their behaviour to the victim.

Bullying is repeated behaviour, and the term does get misapplied to isolated incidents (which isn't to say that they shouldn't be dealt with appropriately).

Some of the posts on this thread impy that, because we are animals, bullying is somehow a fact of human existence, just as the fight to gain a place high up in the pecking order in the animal kingdom is a fact of animal existence. What is being overlooked is that we are different from other animals in that we have reason and empathy and can, theoretically, understand why bullying is unacceptable. To say that it is somehow an inevitable part of human existence excuses and legitimises bullying and I am quite shocked about that.