to think £20 an hour is too much for a gardener?

[toastlover100]

My elderly gran has just told me that her gardener has put his hourly rate up from £15 to £20.

This seems like a lot to me, and a bit percentage increase too!

Certainly if he’s doing a poor job change gardener.

I put up with a guy who was unreliable for months because he was a nice man and I knew they needed the money but when I eventually changed to someone else I regretted having not done it sooner.

MrsGollach Thu 08-Nov-18 13:46:14
It's a big pay rise percentage wise. If she thinks he's good she should perhaps suggest a compromise..maybe £17 ph.

Would you do that in the supermarket? Or the dentist? Or the hairdressers?

Self employed people have to make a living too. Most end up working for less than minimum wage.

This is probably not a full list but all the things a dog groomer has to consider when setting their price:

Accountant
Advertising / Printing
Bank Charges
Blade Sharpening
Blade Wash
Bows and Ribbons
Business Cards
Business Rates
Chiropractor or Osteopath
Cleaning products for salon
Client Record Cards
Clipper Grease
Clipper Oil
Clipper Service Parts
Commercial Waste
Cotton Buds / Bamboo Stix
Cotton Wool
Credit Card Machine Charges
Dog Treats
Detangler
Ear Cleaner
Ear Powder
Elastic Bands
Electric
First Aid Materials
FSB Membership
Gas
Group Subscriptions
Hand Cream
Happy Hoodies
Health Cover
Income Tax
Insurance (Business)
Landline Telephone
Latex Gloves
Legal fees
Magazine Subscriptions
Maintenance Repairs and Redecoration of Premises
Mobile Telephone
Muzzles
No Shows / Missed Appointments
PAT Testing
Pension / Rainy Day Fund (£300 / month)
Petrol or Diesel
Poo Bags
Rent / Mortgage
Replacement blades
Replacement Blaster or Dryer or Clippers
Replacement Brushes
Replacement Combs
Replacement Restraining Nooses
Replacement Vet Bed
Safety Masks
Sewage rates
Scent
Scissors
Scissor Sharpening
Shampoos
Tea / Coffee / Sugar / Milk
Toilet Rolls
Towels
Uniform ( tunic, trousers, tea shirts shoes/boots)
Vehicle Maintenance
Vehicle Tax
Wages
Wages casual labour
Washing Powder (towels etc)
Water rates
Website Fees
Workshops and Seminars

Then personal requirements such as child cover. Also complying with regulations and all insurances.

And after paying for all that, they also need to make a living.

This is probably not a full list but all the things a dog groomer has to consider when setting their price:

I'm not sure how that is relevant to this discussion about a gardener. Anyone can set up work as a gardener cutting lawns it doesn't require much.

Whilst some will be very professional, this gardener doesn't even keep a diary so I am doubtful that he is doing much more than putting a lawn mower into his car and driving to the houses.

I’m a part qualified gardener and I currently do a few hours per week. I’m in the NW and charge£18 per hour.

Many people see that as a high headline rate and think these streets are paved with gold. However:-

1. It’s highly seasonal work
2. It’s wearher dependant in a day to day basis irrespective of season.
3. I run a vehicle
4. I have tools to provide and maintain.
5. I’m not a hatchet person, I’m selling my knowledge.
6. I’m not paid for the travelling time beteeen jobs.
7. I have to visit potential clients in advance and price jobs up at no cost with no guarantee they’ll hire me.
8. I have no sickness / holiday pay.
9. I have to provide insurance.

10. I spend a certain amount of hours per month billing customers and doing the books. There is no payment for these hours.

I’m well aware that if I was a gardener on a contract say for example for the rhs , national trust etc I wouldn’t be on anything like the rate of pay, but I would be guaranteed my contracted hours weekly, irrrspextive of the season / weather and I wouldn’t have the hassle of the other tasks around being self employed. The two are in no way comparable.

You also need to ask How long has it been since this person last had a pay rise?? If it’s last year then that’s a big increase, if it’s been 5 years than less so. Or he could have realised that his coatings are out.

Food for thought n all that!!

This is probably not a full list but all the things a dog groomer has to consider when setting their price:

I'm not sure how that is relevant to this discussion about a gardener. Anyone can set up work as a gardener cutting lawns it doesn't require much.

Whilst some will be very professional, this gardener doesn't even keep a diary so I am doubtful that he is doing much more than putting a lawn mower into his car and driving to the houses

That list can be amended for any trade. The point of my post was that there are umpteen things that self employed people need to pay for out of their rate.

£20/ hour is about the going rate here. For tradesmen we pay about £150 for a full day usually

If I may summarise this in a way that might be helpful. £20 is minimum rate for a reputable and trained gardener if they actually want to scrape a living after all overheads are paid. However the gentleman in question is not a gardener he is a guy with a mower who cuts peoples grass. There is a big difference. He probably doesn’t have the appropriate insurances, waste carriers license etc and probably gets away with tipping his waste a the tips for free. This is mere speculation and it is the low ballers at this end of the market that keeps professional gardeners wages low. I would recommend you switched to another company to cut your grass and if you need a gardener be prepared to pay professional gardeners fees.

WTF has single and living with his parents or being single got to do with his rates. OP if you had to move back into your parents or split from your DP for some reason would you expect your employer to give you a wage cut because of it.

If he dawdles or doesn't do a good job get rid of him. But it still doesn't change the fact that £20 isn't a ridiculous rate for a gardener

Seems perfectly reasonable.

Toastlover100. I am assuming you don't live in London/South East or the Cotswolds where even unreliable labour seems to be priced at "Think of a number and double it" hence many MNetters who live in those areas think it's reasonable. (I have a close relatives who live in both the Cotswolds and the South East and what they pay for things makes my eyes water.)

If you don't - and your DM doesn't live in an unusually expensive area in the Midlands/North - then I would be seriously questioning this huge price increase and start setting some ground rules. then keep your beady eye on him

I had one 25 years ago who was charging high for the area and times and was JUST like your dm's gardener. Took forever to do simple tasks that should have taken no more than 20 mins and then charged me for 2-3 hours. He only did it a couple of times before I politely told him to "Go forth and multiply."

Ring around and get some alternative quotes.

The hourly rate is reasonable but if he is unreliable then look for someone else.
But his being single and living arrangements are none of your concern and bear not relation to his hourly rate.

Sounds right to me

£20 per hour is perfectly reasonable for all the reasons people have stated above. So many things have to be factored in, not least the initial outlay for very expensive equipment, van, travel, fuel, insurance, admin costs and times when no work can take place (rain, snow etc) but the gardener still has bills to pay. It's not an easy way to make a living I imagine.

Sounds reasonable to me

We pay £18 a hour just outside London. It involves a lot of training, skill and knowledge. Worth every penny.

I can kinda see both sides of this.

My DP works in landscaping and gardening, and is self employed. She has her own tools, and works for a mix of schools, private clients and independent organizations and so on. She has her own car etc etc and she charges about £20 per hour in the Midlands. This seems fair enough. It's her livelihood, and others have said, there are lots of hidden, unpaid costs.

On the other hand if this is some random neighbour doing it for beer money or equivalent, I'd balk slightly at handing out the same cash. Do any of her neighbours have a teenager who'd appreciate a tenner or fifteen quid to do the job instead? I mean, if you're going to pay someone who isn't qualified or a professional or whatever, then you may as well get it as cheap as you can. Maybe they'd throw in a car wash or something too.

It is quite a standard rate here in London. So to directly address your initial post, it is not a lot. However, as you say, it is a high percentage increase. It would seem worth asking him about it. You definitely want to avoid an elderly person being taken advantage of, but I would expect him/her to explain that this is a pretty standard rate. If all goes well, you've gone further to build a good relationship. If you're not satisfied, look for another gardener with some RHS practical qualifications - then you know they have invested in their career and are well worth the £20.

My friend who is a gardener comments the following: People have no clue how hard a job it is! Financially, physically and mentally. We only do a high standard of work, we take longer over jobs to ensure work quality and the area left immaculatey. I charge £15 per hour per head. There are two of us.

240 a day plus 30 for taking a trailer load of waste away, any less than a trailer is taken in the hourly rate. Grass cutting is priced separately as the cost is so high. I take out 5.5k of grass cutting kit and that's just pedestrian kit. I dread to think the total cost in all of our kit, advertising etc etc. My van 36k, maintenance is very high, travel between jobs. You cannot make money cutting lawns on a hourly rate. I invest a lot in kit to make it easier for us, faster for the customer and so we can do a better job. The year I purchased van and kit etc I spent 62k, a lot borrowed of course. I'd love to charge more, we justify it completely but it is easier said than done.

I wouldn't hesitate paying 20 per hr but it seems you are unhappy with reliability, a separate issue from your first post. Drip feeding is not helpful. I would suggest you haven't had the answers you were hoping for on here as you are defensive to peoples' posts. A compromise in rate as suggested is ridiculous. Take it or leave it would be my suggestion unless he wearing a salvation army badge!

missmouse apologies about the drip feeding, just trying to answer things as comments arise.

Your friend sounds professional and conscientious, would be well worth paying £20/hour! I have come to realise from posters response that £20/hour is well worth it for a good standard of service, so my gripe is with the individual gardener.

I absolutely appreciate what a challenging job it is.

Thank you for such a lovely response op. My gardening friend is up against this so often and it really brings him down to keep having to justify it to people. Glad it's helped clear things up.

Mine charges £17/hr but I think it is going to up £18/hr in January - she won't do all the jobs by previous one did although she is very good at what she does do. I would be happy to pay her £20/hr.

My previous gardener charged £25/hr (very knowledgeable and had great ideas- probably a bit steep but for the hours we had it was worth it). He got a job as a head gardener for someone very rich so stopped doing our little garden.

Sounds like her gardener should've put his rates up a while back as £15/hr is low for a skilled gardener - that is quite a big sudden hike though.

A young relative of mine gave up gardening. She was never short of work and had a waiting list. However she worked out that once she had covered all her costs, including transport, tools, insurance, admin time and so on, she was pretty much earning minimum wage for sometimes backbreaking work. At that time she was charging £15 per hour (about 5 years ago). But the thing that really got her down was the late payments. She was very well organised and sent monthly invoices via email - however every month she had to chase payment from the same people, invariably the well-off ones, which she found demoralising and which caused cash flow problems. Plus those who haggled over prices, again the clearly well-off.

Currently selling my DDad's house and the estate agent recommended a firm to tidy the garden that charged £90 ph (2 gardeners). I found brother of an old school friend to do it for £20 ph (mates rates should've been £25). In return I'm passing his details to the agents so hopefully they'll put more work his way. I think you need to consider as well if they are just doing a light tidy up or much harder graft, using own tools etc

It’s a fair price .