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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Five little Indians

27 replies

WelcomeToGreenvale · 21/10/2018 00:59

How would you feel if your child was taught to sing "Five Little Indians" at preschool? Complete with the hand-on-mouth "wahwahwah" sound at the end?

This is in the UK, where Native Americans may be in some cases almost mythical, and "Cowboys and Indians" themed days are still common with young children.

I think it's at worst racist and at best ignorant. Personally I know a person who is from a Native American tribe who prefers the moniker Indian, and I've also known others who dislike that moniker and prefer Native American or Indigenous American or something else.

The hand-on-mouth "wahwahwah" sound/gesture is absolutely unacceptably racist, and there are dozens of variants of that song that don't involve stereotypes of any culture.Think "five little fingers", or "five little teddy bears".

Same as a hand-raised saying "How", the inaccuracies of how "teepee" is used in the western world, etc - it seems inappropriate at best.

OP posts:

MrDonut · 21/10/2018 01:01

I thought most people sang Five little elephants or something similar these days.

CoolCarrie · 21/10/2018 01:01

You think that’s bad, the other version was called something much worse, see the Agatha Christie novel.

DioneTheDiabolist · 21/10/2018 01:05

Cowboys and Indians" themed days are still common with young children.
Not around here. Cowboys, sometimes, but not "Indians".

florenceheadache · 21/10/2018 01:16

I live very close to a First Nations arbor and attended a few hours of their annual pow wow. Their costumes were amazing and so was the signing and dancing which to my surprise was exactly as I pictured it from decades of stories. Tee Pee’s, Eagle feather head dress, face paint, etc. My previous experience was with coastal tribes which dressed differently and inhabited long houses.
I would think it’s all about instilling respect.

Original poster

WelcomeToGreenvale · 21/10/2018 01:18

@CoolCarrie I know!! I love And Then There Were None but hooboy there's a reason the title was changed.

@DionetheDiabolist are you sure? No "Indian" headdresses with feathers etc? That's fairly common around here, SE England. Maybe this area is somewhat backwards? Especially strange, as we have a significant amount of locals who are Indians, as in from India.

OP posts:

Walkingdeadfangirl · 21/10/2018 01:19

About the same if they were forced to use 'man sized' tissues.

Original poster

WelcomeToGreenvale · 21/10/2018 01:21

I am glad to infer that it's not just me being over sensitive, thinking it's not right to teach the children that song, especially without any other attempt at teaching them about Native Americans/First Nations people. Thank you.

OP posts:

florenceheadache · 21/10/2018 01:22

We call those from India, East Indians, Asians is a term used to describe those from the Orient.

Faster · 21/10/2018 01:24

I’ve never even heard of the song tbh

PennyArcade · 21/10/2018 01:34

Could you post lyrics OP? I've not heard of this song. Is it the same as 10 Little Indians?

Splurge77 · 21/10/2018 01:38

Yes it’s racist and I’d be very annoyed if my child was taught that. I assume it’s coming from a place of ignorance, rather than malice, but I’d certainly speak up.

florenceheadache · 21/10/2018 01:42

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Little_Indians

AlbertaWildRose · 21/10/2018 01:44

That is unbelievably racist. I live in Canada, where even to use the term "Indian" is unacceptable. We say First Nations or Indigenous. If children were taught a song like that here, their pre-school would be all over the news in a second.

Original poster

WelcomeToGreenvale · 21/10/2018 01:53

@PennyArcade same as Ten Little Indians, a pp posted an article about it with the lyrics.

It's worse than I thought if it comes from a minstrel song.

In short a colleague occasionally sings the song with a group of 2-4 year old children. She has a wide variety of songs in her repetoire and this one only appears occasionally but I do find it uncomfortable to hear, and I don't know how to speak to her or management about it.

OP posts:

indigoprincess · 21/10/2018 02:22

I am surprised. I did not think schools still used songs or rhymes like these. I have heard that even Baa Baa Black Sheep is offensive these days, (or is that an urban legend?)

MrsTerryPratchett · 21/10/2018 02:32

Enormously racist. The I word is used officially in Canada sometimes but is very much frowned upon. Ditto Nat*ve. Both are sometimes used by people to describe themselves but I would be horrified if DD said either of those words.

Nandocushion · 21/10/2018 02:40

I (not British) worked in the news media in the UK about a dozen years ago and fought a losing battle to convince Editorial to stop using the phrase "Red Indian". This doesn't surprise me sadly.

thefraggleontherock · 21/10/2018 06:02

Not appropriate, I think it's probably a case of your colleague just using the song and not really thinking about the words. I would mention it to her before escalating it officially. Just suggest she uses an alternative, when I sing it with DC we sing "little dinosaurs"

OneStepSideways · 21/10/2018 07:15

That's racist and inappropriate. So is calling Inuit people 'Eskimos' yet I still hear it a lot. The cowboys and Indians theme is also very inappropriate and insensitive, given that cowboys wiped out the indigenous people! I think 'native Americans' is the correct term nowadays.

LoniceraJaponica · 21/10/2018 07:24

Onestep on one documentary I saw about Canada they stated that they preferred being called eskimos rather than Inuits or indiginous people.

This naming of people of different races is becoming a minefield these days when we are all trying to be pc. Someone invariably gets offended because the wrong term is used.

Justlikedevon · 21/10/2018 07:49

It's not one I sing anymore.
At some point I have had a parent object to everything. Can't sing 5 currant buns as it's wrong to label them as fat. Not suggesting the song mentioned in the OP is wholly appropriate but nothing is it seems.

DioneTheDiabolist · 21/10/2018 08:57

No headdresses with feathers. No wahwahwah with hands. I haven't seen kids play "Cowboys and Indians" since the 90s. It hasn't been present in children's culture for a very long time.

Just explain to your colleague that the song is now considered racist and she shouldn't sing it anymore in case someone complains and she gets into trouble.

Especially strange, as we have a significant amount of locals who are Indians, as in from India.

longwayoff · 21/10/2018 10:37

Greenvale, I havent heard that phrase in 40 years. Where on earth do you live? 1960?

LoniceraJaponica · 21/10/2018 10:49

This article about indigenous populations of Alaska, Greenland and Canada makes interesting reading. It would appear that some Alaskans actually prefer to be called Eskimo because they don't consider themselves Inuit.

MrsTerryPratchett · 21/10/2018 16:03

It's not really that hard. I call the First Nations people I know Bob, Mary, Jessica, Shana... and I call the people they live and work with their names or 'community members' or, you know, people.

The only time I really use 'Inuit' or the names of Nations is either officially, when I'm talking about individual Nations (for example, 'I'm going to the Malahat First Nation today'), or when I'm acknowledging territories at the beginning of events. In which case I've checked with three people, run it past others and practiced the pronunciation.

There really is a dreadful history of behaviour from colonists to Indigenous people. The very least we can do is not actively ridicule and stereotype Indigenous culture.

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