To ask about GRA

[HelmetHair1]

Hello all. Long-time lurker but first time poster. I know this isn't strictly an AIBU but I wanted to get people's views on GRA because I'm just filling out the consultation form now.

Like many people, I have some concerns about whether self-ID will enable men to access women's spaces with malicious intentions. I don't have any problem sharing a loo or changing room with a trans woman, but I don't want a man to be able to say 'I self ID as a woman so I should be allowed in' - that would seem obviously stupid and dangerous.

I've just seen that Q6 of the consultation doc asks whether it should be a requirement of self-ID that you make a statutory declaration that you intend to live as your acquired gender for the rest of your life. Knowingly lying when making a statutory declaration is a criminal offence punishable by up to two years in prison.

I didn't really understand the nuances of this so I did some research. Organisations like Stonewall support this being a requirement, so long as it's the only requirement (e.g. no need to provide details of medical treatments or evidence of having lived as your acquired gender for a specified period of time).

I am trying to decide whether this will be enough. I'm inclined to think that this would help solve the problem of men trying to abuse women's spaces - if you have to make a statutory declaration, and falsely doing so is a criminal offence, that will presumably deter people from pretending to be trans in order to be abusive? And it would stop people from claiming to be women or men as and when it suits them - they would have to make a lifelong commitment.

On the other hand, we don't know how seriously any breach of this rule would be taken so it's hard to assess how much of a deterrent it would be. And it wouldn't stop men pretending to be trans over the long term in order to be able to access women's spaces (although I don't know how likely this eventuality actually is?)

What are others' thoughts? Is this a sufficient safeguard? I'm leaning towards thinking that as long as there is a requirement for a statutory declaration I am happy for self-ID to pass, but I still have some niggling uncertainties. Would be interested in hearing others' opinions!

(Sorry this ended up being so long)

"If you are a woman who was born a woman you have probably never thought about it, but it is only when you have the wrong gender that you realise how often you are identified by that wrong gender"

I like this argument. That women are so comfortable in their own skin that they don't notice how important gender is.

When in fact large numbers of women are a. extremely uncomfortable in their own skin including dysphoric and b. are acutely aware of how gender impacts them day to day and are often ambivalent at best or hate it.

• names and titles.

women have for years and continue to be misgendered & called the wrong names. we were told this was trivial when we made a fuss about it.

the idea that women are not fully aware of all this stuff just shows a lack of understanding for / knowledge of womens complaints / rights issues over the decades

it's insulting.

@Myriad. That was exactly my point. You are looking at it that all TW will experience distress when misgendered and treated wrong, but someone who wants to use GRA to get into a womans spaces for their own gain does not really experience that distress and would be able to use the perception of being male to their advantage and the rights of being female only when they need to , best of both worlds, even when insisting they are a woman they will be treated with the deference of a man

" If you are a woman who was born a woman you have probably never thought about it"

This you see this is outrageously patronising.

Verbal equivalent of a pat on the head to a 5yo.

Two words:

posting history

"On balance, in the debate between easing the distress and anxiety of hundreds of thousands of trans people and the malicious intent of a few abusers there can, in my mind, be no question that the support for trans people should prevail"

How could you possibly know what number of people would abuse this? You can't and shouldn't try to weigh up the balance in this way. In my opinion even one instance of abuse is too much. And your comments on FairPlay for women are wholly inaccurate.

@nauticant
Well, we have to agree to disagree on that then. I am slightly perturbed by your almost implied statement that the majority of trans people have factitious disorders and, more so, wish to gain access to women only spaces by using that. I understand anyone's wish to safeguard women and women's rights, but is this at the expense of the rights of trans people, and particularly being as dismissive as you appear to be, that is, in my view, a very dangerous trait. I will leave it there.

I am slightly perturbed by your almost implied statement that the majority of trans people have factitious disorders

What on earth is an almost implied statement? By that you mean a statement I didn't say, didn't mean, but you are claiming is there is some way.

Where did I say gender dysphoria is "factitious" (by which you probably meant fictitious)?

I'm with NothingOnTellyAgain with disingenuous.

Bah:

Where did I say some trans people having gender dysphoria is "factitious" (by which you probably meant fictitious)?

I think that she actually did mean to say factitious, which means 'artificially created or developed'. She's saying you implied that the majority of trans people are artificially creating a disorder in order to access women's spaces.

Different to fictitious, which means imaginary,

Thanks for the correction. But I object to this claim:

She's saying you implied that the majority of trans people are artificially creating a disorder in order to access women's spaces.

So I need to tell you about my ex who is the father of my child, he liked dressing up and being a woman. He got angry as he kept being misgendered as a woman on the phone as he has a hig voice (we both had the same job in a call centre) and he was very pleased whenever he managed to pass as a woman in his women's clothes, he very much wanted to be gendered on his presentation and had no problems being gendered as a man when presenting male.

I know he prefers women's toilets and would have no hesitation on getting a GRC if it becomes this easy to get one and I know he would only pull it out to prove he can use the womens changing rooms while having no problem being misgendered as a man when it suits him. He has no problems whipping off his wig and using his maleness to solve a problem.

This is a man who insisted on having sex 5 time a day even when I was 9 months pregnant, who insisted on knowing where I was at all times and had me wait behind in our office if I finished an hour before him, who refused to come home and see his own daughter because I was not at our house while he was at work, I know that he would get a GRC in order to be able to follow whatever girlfriend he has wherever she goes, in order to be able to control who she sees and what she does.

But whos deepest desire is to be a woman.

@Myriad If trans people want equality, they should request third spaces just for them. Like we women had to. Not steal our spaces.

If trans people campaigned for their OWN spaces, then women would stand alongside them to be supportive.

Why is the trans movement the only civil rights group which seeks to take over another groups rights, rather than create their own spaces ? Smells like validation rather than safety which is pushing the trans agenda. With no care about the women and children these new policies will endanger.

Why is the trans movement the only civil rights group which seeks to take over another groups rights, rather than create their own spaces?

Just from a factual perspective, this is completely untrue. Black people fighting against Jim Crow laws weren't fighting for their own bathrooms and water fountains and schools and universities and sports teams. They were fighting to be included in those already available to white people, and from which they were excluded. That's why there was such a huge push from black people for desegregation.

Similarly, many gay people continue to fight for equal marriage rights, despite the fact that civil partnerships were created especially for gay couples.

@Nospellingsnomore

"If trans people want equality, they should request third spaces just for them. Like we women had to. Not steal our spaces."

So we're finally there. Trans people are not women or men, but a separate category you feel. And therein lies the problem exactly. This is not a contest between "women" and "trans".

But as the level of the discussion has now dropped below zero and we descend into profanities I bow out and wish you all well.

I hope you have all the answers you need @HelmetHair1

Thanks for taking the time to provide so many answers @Myriad - it's much appreciated.

@Myriad Your logical, sensible and well-considered posts are a breath of fresh air. Thank you for taking the time to share them.

I want single-sex spaces, Myriad, yes. What is wrong with providing that? It's usual, or used to be.

If you are unsafe in the facilities for your own sex, you need a third option. That's fine, and reasonable, and proportionate.

On balance, in the debate between easing the distress and anxiety of hundreds of thousands of women and opening everywhere up to abusers there can, in my mind, be no question that the support for women should prevail.

There you go, Myriad, fixed it for you.

It should be unthinkable that we make single-sex spaces less safe without the consent of all concerned.

Now we need to find a fair way to ease the lives of actual dysphoric people.

@notsorighteousthesedays I mean that you can't have rules for how "feminine looking" a transwoman needs to be, because butch lesbians, gender nonconforming women of various kinds, and women who die to hormonal issues do sometimes naturally grow beards whilst still being XX female, would not all comply. There is no unifying factor of how XX women look.

@Myriad I have no idea whether you describing my previous as misleading was due to you accidentally misunderstanding or deliberately wanting to obfuscate my valid point.

The self-ID legislation by itself only allows for any birth certificate to be changed.

The consequence of that will be that no organisation that previously provided single-sex options will even attempt to keep them so. The law is about birth certificates - the practical consequence will be wider.

Our swimming pool has female-only sessions. No-one has to bring a birth certificate to get in. So post-self-ID the pool will have to assume that anyone that arrives and asks to swim is a woman, because asking them to prove it (when the dozen obviously female customers ahead in the queue weren't asked to prove anything) would be a transphobic act.

The equality act exemptions are unenforceable without considerable strengthening, because of the privacy aspects of the GRA.

Other than in the context of lignguists / grammar, the term 'gender' has no clear meaning to me.

Please could @Myriad or @HelmetHair1 or anyone else happily talking about 'gender' point me to a definitive answer?

Those that use the term don't appear to agree - some talk about a spectrum, some talk about a binary that may or may not 'match' biological sex. But what the fuck is "it"?

The use of the term relies on reference to feelings and social stereotypes to give it any sort of meaning and therefore is entirely subjective.

For some reason it has come to be used interchangeably with the word sex - or indeed to have replaced the word sex! But there is no universal understanding of what it means. I am at a loss as to how this came about.

But people use it with complete confidence as if it has a factual, even scientific or biological definition.

Black people fighting against Jim Crow laws weren't fighting for their own bathrooms and water fountains and schools and universities and sports teams. They were fighting to be included in those already available to white people, and from which they were excluded. That's why there was such a huge push from black people for desegregation.

The flaw in the parallel you're attempting to draw is that water fountains, bus seats, and restaurants are public facilities. The difference between white facilities and black facilities was that the latter were inferior to those reserved for white, and (unsurprisingly) black folks weren't happy about that. Desegregation was about access to equal quality of services, not to be "treated as though black people were white people."

Just imagine how rubbish Afro hair specialist salons would be for their clients if they were all just Euro hair salons "to be equal", for example.

Similarly, many gay people continue to fight for equal marriage rights, despite the fact that civil partnerships were created especially for gay couples.

Civil partnerships are the same as marriage, legally speaking. Once the former was legal and was demonstrably publicly accepted, there was little reason not to make the latter legal as well.

People who don't like gay marriage can choose not to marry someone of the same sex. People who don't like changing next to someone with an opposite sex body who says they "feel" like their behaviour is the same as yours based purely on YOUR sexed body aren't being given an opportunity to say no.

Please stop trying to make steamrollering over women's boundries into a human right. We've had enough of that for centuries, ta very much.

@tenorladybeaker
I must have accidentally misunderstood, as I would not want to obfuscate any valid points. But, in fact, I still do not understand your concern.

Your swimming pool has female only sessions. As you say, no-one has to bring a birth certificate to get in. So how will Self ID, that will allow easier access to a GRC, which, in turn, will allow you to change your birth certificate, make any difference to that? If it weren't a transphobic act, how would you ask a person in the queue that you suspect might not be a woman to prove that she is?

The next question is: would a trans woman, who is, after all a woman, not be allowed to swim in a women only group? Or would you think that is appropriate only after she has had top and bottom surgery?
I assume here that there is no particular circumstance here that justifies an exclusion of trans women as a proportionate measure, otherwise this would, of course, be allowed.