To ask if you do/would get into debt for school fees?

[AgentRoss]

• 8 year old.
• 99% of LA secondary schools are dreadful. Some are simply riot control.
• Moving isn't an option.
• Increasing our income is unlikely but we're looking.
• We don't drive for medical reasons so can't go to a school further away.
• We have no debt apart from our mortgage which is about half way through.
• We have some savings but our house is literally falling apart so we MUST spend them on that.

Are we being stupid thinking about getting into a not insignificant amount of debt to pay for private school? We could pay maybe half the cost of the fees and exams without borrowing but that excludes uniforms, extra-cirricular activities, all the other random stuff. We are confident we could get the credit at good rates.

Obviously this would then have a knock on effect on the amount of financial support we could provide for uni, first house etc.

Plus the headache of getting back into debt we've worked hard to get out of and the finincial imlact it would have on us long term.

Tilly, you're not allowed to do that and will lose your place if you're found out.

It sounds like you'd really struggle. Is 10k for fees a rough guesstimate or are you sure? Have you spoken to other parents whose DC attend? Are there school trips involved that cost more? An emphasis on certain sports that require extra costs? It sounds like even finding an extra 3-5k a year might push you over the top. You say your house needs 10k more repairs. Is that just cosmetic or things that really can't be put off? Also if Dd attends school at end of road are you in a position where she can invite friends in, or is the house not in a good enough state? That could cause her awkwardness. What school are her primary friends parents thinking of?

Definitely check what is included in the fees. We pay extra for the following:

• Insurance (both schools)
• Lunch (DD’s school)
• Art/DT equipment (both schools)
• Residential trips (both schools, although these are mostly optional until you reach GCSE field trips)
• Exams (both schools - GCSEs are surprisingly expensive)

There is also a lot of uniform, e.g. DS has 3 sets of games kit (rugby, hockey and cricket) and 2 sets of PE kit (indoor and outdoor) and swimming kit. Plus the usual day-to-day uniform: shirts (long sleeves in winter, short sleeves in summer), trousers, blazer, jumpers, tie, shoes, art overall, apron, lab coat, school coat, school fleece, etc.)

All the people blithely suggesting the OP applies for a bursary or a grammar school place are making the huge assumption that the 8 year old in question is academically talented enough to be eligible. What if the child is just your average, pleasant, bright well behaved child, but not in the top 10 or 15%? No private school is going to offer a free or cheap place unless the child is exceptionally clever or talented, and competition for grammar school places is even more fierce.

I think you’d be massively out of your depth. It would be one thing someone earning 100k plus borrowing for school fees but if your house is worth £90k your income probably isn’t high enough to sustain school fees. A distant family member overstretched and has to pull children out of private school which was horrid for all concerned. Don’t start something that you can’t sustain or would threaten your familiy’s financial stability.

We send our DD to independent school for various reasons and it is a financial stretch.

Our reasons are:

• she has some particular behavioural issues which would not be addressed in a large class/would be treated as problematic rather than get more attention
• very small school where everyone knows her name - very friendly and nurturing environment
• broad curriculum also includes loads of physical and outdoors activities

Negative things we wanted to avoid (we went to see local schools)

• poor outdoor facilities
• restricted access to after school care (3 year waiting list in a place where there are no child minders)
• council cuts had reduced enhanced curriculum stuff (this is a primary school) eg cookery, library etc had no facilities any more

I think it’s worth it as our DD is so happy all the time. She loves school, has lots of friends who are all ages and she is very healthy. Go for it if it’s not actually going to bankrupt you.

Re-reading your post suggesting you could maybe manage half the annual fees (and you're suggesting 10k fees). 5kish to spend on extra tutoring, sports, clubs outside of school would go pretty far in offsetting a poor/mediocre school. On top of that you could save towards 6th form entry at a private school before uni if you wanted to.

You live in an area where housing is relatively cheap and so the pure cost of moving (stamp duty etc) will be far less than the school fees. Yes you might need 90k extra for a house in catchment, which is (slightly?) more than 10k a year in school fees (not sure how many years this is for, and don't forget extra costs) but at the end of the school years you can sell the house and recoup the money. Or f things really go wrong and you cannot afford the mortgage then you have an asset to sell. If you pay the school fees the money is gone. And if you borrow and cannot repay the debt you have no assets.

LostinLeics you are 100% wrong about bursaries. They are means tested, not academics tested. Provided the child passes the exams, they need not be the brightest in the class. Scholarships (not bursaries) are for the gifted, but they typically offer just 5-10% off the fees these days. Our DCs school offers up to 100% bursaries to any child who passes the exam, regardless of where they come in the results.

So secondary school at age 11 will be £10k per year for 5years if just for GCSEs and 7years if A levels as well. So at least £50k. That's all of the equity in your house to look at it that way, not including interest or school fee increases. (And not sure how much you have saved but I think you said you have to spend that on the house)

I wouldn't put her in unless you are sure you can afford the payments for the whole 5 years and on paper it doesn't really look like you can. I wouldn't do it, no. It will put you under an enormous amount of pressure and worry for many years.

Mina sadly it's not the case that averagely gifted children will get offered a bursary, as there is steep competition for these places - more competition than for the paid for places. This, rather than a scholarship policy, is why bursaries go to the most 'gifted' children (as in, those who do best in the exam on the day), So if 50 pupils sit the exam and apply for a bursary and all 50 pass, only the top 5 (for example, assuming the school has a 10% bursary rate) will be offered a bursary.

OP -surely her classmates are in a similar position. What do they plan to do?

it is easy for us to talk about this abstractly online but I can imagine it's excruciating to see the private school at the end of your road and not have access to a similar level of education for your own child. But I think you should look seriously into going out of borough.

Other people will have their own experiences, but I was a bursary pupil at a private school and I always felt left out because I wasn't posh enough, didn't have a big house to go home to, couldn't take part in expensive extra curricular activities etc etc etc. But I was 13 when I went so a bit older than your dd and also already in the crucial/ cruel teenage years.

Check exactly how much it will be for the rest of Junior AND Secondary. Build it an additional 4% a year at least for it to increase. When my daughter was in Junior school senior was about £15k it's now £21k a year. We rather stupidly didn't take that into account. It's not put us in debt but it has meant we've not had a proper holiday or new car since 2006.

In all honesty if we were to do it again, I think we'd just move.

MinaPaws mine weren’t eligible for bursaries unless they’d already been awarded a scholarship.

At every single school we looked at we were told scholarships are for the best performers in exams, and bursaries are for children bright enough to attend the school who can't afford to go there. Of course the value of bursaries varies from school to school, according to how much money is set by for each, and even with a bursary, school fees are impossble for many peole. But bursaries are categorically not for the very brightest. That's scholarships. Bursaries are for the least able to pay. A very bright child might get offered both.

MinaPaws mine got bursaries but we’re only eligible because they’d won a scholarship. It will differ from school to school but no guarantee of bursary just because your income isn’t high.

I know that when my friend's son sat the entrance exam for the local private school, he passed and was offered a place. When the parents then asked to apply for a means tested bursary, they were told by the school that he hadn't passed highly enough to be eligible - the school were happy to offer him a full fee paying place, but not a subisdised one.

While schools might make encouraging noises on their websites and prospectuses about the value of bursaries and scholarships available, you might find that in reality a lot of the money goes towards reduced fees for the children of staff members, discounts for sibling groups, and assistance for children who started off paying full fees before their families got into financial difficulties due to job losses or illness. The pot of money left over for new children joining the school is likely to be reserved for those who have got something very special to offer which is going to benefit the school, such as exceptional academic, musical or sporting ability, not just your run of the mill bright child whose parents would struggle to pay the fees.

Agree with LostinLeics

Look at the progress 8 and attainment 8 scores rather than GCSE

Paying private when you cannot afford it is a silly idea, costs rise and there are hidden costs. Your child will learn through school if you teach them to want to learn

Look at why are in special measures, one of our local schools was and when I looked into it, they got excellent results but were judged not to push the best pupils enough. Is now out of special measures after getting a new head.

In you situation I would go with the religious school. If too restrictive it would be cheaper to supplement curriculum with a tutor, your own activities etc..

The way bursaries work at independent schools is that the school has a certain pot of money. You (usually) apply for a means tested bursary, or indicate if you will need one, when signing up for the exam. At the exam, the kids are ranked. They then go through the list top to bottom, so say kids 1, 2 and 3 don't need a bursary - they don't get it (although might well get an academic scholarship). Say kid 4 needs a 25% bursary - they get it, kid 5 needs 10%, kid 6 and 7 need nothing, kid 8 needs 100%. They go on through the list until the pot runs out. One year the pot might run out at 15/50 places, another year it might not run out until place number 37. So realistically, no, it isn't just the brightest get means tested bursaries, but it is fairly standard that the bursary pot runs out around half-way down the list so if you've just scraped in it's less likely. However, you'd be surprised how few people apply for bursaries just because they don't know they exist, so worth a shot.

Also, money for reduced fees for staff kids (who would usually otherwise be entitled to a means tested bursary anyway as teachers aren't paid that much); gifted and talented in various areas and sibling discounts are NOT the same pot as the bursary fund, unless the school has some dodgy financial dealings. They have to keep bursary funds separate.

Surely it would better to choose one of the local schools that has the best management team /headteacher and then spend the cash on tutors.

Schools can really change quickly our school did. Also a good head plus supportive family means your child should do well.

Remember the input of family is very important in gcse results.

Honestly you would be getting way in over your head with that debt. I went to private school and barely scraped five gcse so don't assume it would be the fix all solution

I've been in a sort of similar situation.....

My son got NONE of the 6 choices of school we put down (the 6 closest). Our options were:

• Private school (couldn't afford, and would not get into debt for school fees).
• Move house.
• Home school whilst remaining on the waiting list for all 6 schools.

In your position I would not choose private school unless you can comfortably afford it. What if you have another child? What if you lose your job? What if the fees go up? Too many variables!

Put your child down for the religious school in that's the only school you can stand. Or you bite the bullet and move. It is possible to do this, even though you say it is difficult.

Last option would be homeschooling.

Absolutely! It's lifelong investment in your child's future. LA schools in my city are horrific- over crowded, shit facilities, bullying, racism, no sports or arts, just bloody awful. Private school was the best thing I ever did for DD and she got a top notch education in a safe, nurturing environment with exposure to the best technology, teachers and a wide variety of subjects that LA schools could only dream of offering.

Tillytrotter123

I'm not sure if you are aware, but what you are suggesting is fraud.

The LA is very wise to this, and will remove the child from the school, and the parents get in a huge amount of trouble.

Don't give this advice to anyone, even if your friend did do it, and got away with it.

Your child is only 8 years old so if you are determined to do this then start getting frugal and save every penny now. Anything that will lower the amount you need to borrow and hence reduce the stress. Do not underestimate the costs of extras and the fact life will throw you unexpected expensive problems.