Grammar schools should make contextual offers?

[capitalshitem]

I have no personal stake in this at all as not in a grammar school area. I was watching a programme on tv the other day about grammar schools and a young girl from an immigrant family living in a tower block didn't get a place and she was less than 10% under the benchmark whilst a girl from a naice middle class family who had probably been tutored was a couple of points over and obviously got a place. Can't we assume that in the same circumstances they would both have achieved a similar result? Why can't grammar schools make contextual offers like some universities do?

The 2 Grammars nearest to us DO make lower offers to children on The Pupil Premium

The whole point of Grammar Schools are that pupils attain a specific standard at a certain level in order to gain admittance. Contextual offers should have nothing to do with admittance . A child's family financial or social circumstances should be 'irrelevant' if a child fails short of entry requirements.

I don't care if Grammar Schools favour middle class kids over working class kids, 'whatever' they are (the definition of which is open to interpretation ) !

They shouldn't give contextual offers. They should be abolished.

For once Bertrand I agree with you , though coming from a different view !

Bertrand as you know I am a 'dyed in the wool' supporter of retaining academic selection where it still exists !

The whole point of Grammar Schools are that pupils attain a specific standard at a certain level in order to gain admittance

The point was to provide an academic education for intelligent children regardless of their ability to pay for one. Nothing about “attaining a specific standard”. Entrance is supposed to be aimed at measuring ability not attainment. Whether that is possible is a valid question but that’s the aim.

I went to a grammar school and loved it, there was a big mix of girls from different socio-economic backgrounds, also should children be punished for having parents that are interested in their learning and pushing them to achieve? I don’t get the hatred of grammar schools?

" should children be punished for having parents that are interested in their learning and pushing them to achieve?"
What do you mean by "punished"?

Well those saying grammar schools should be scrapped means that children who could have the opportunity to attend a grammar school and thrive would be denied that opportunity, perhaps punished was the wrong word? It seems that people think it is somehow unfair for children from ‘privilidged’ backgrounds to be offered places in grammar schools, but privilege isn’t always money, it’s interest, involvement, natural ability etc, why deny children this?

Rufus85 would you say the same if your child was one of the discarded 89% who were relegated to secondary moderns?
Research has proved time and time again that grammars do not improve outcomes for disadvantaged children.
They are a Tory sop to the middle classes who want a free elite education for their child.
The Value added impact of grammars is low. The entry is disproportionately in favour of the middle classes outside of London (where immigrant families do feature).

There are very good comprehensive schools but they look worse because they take a non selective cohort (except in areas with grammars where they take what’s left and have to manage the rejected children within same attainment framework but with less money.

"Research has proved time and time again that grammars do not improve outcomes for disadvantaged children."
They don't actually improve outcomes for anyone.

If 89% of pupils are in unsatisfactory education then that is a national tragedy and needs to be addressed, however you seem to think grammar schools are elitist, now I attended one of the top ten grammar schools in the country and it simply isn’t true. They were girls from so many backgrounds, easl, social housing, single parent families etc and your solution is to make sure the other 11% do what? I think as a society we should encourage all children to try and thrive, and if some are more academic than others then why should they be denied the opportunity to do well? I don’t think it’s unfair or unjust to want what is best for your child. Ultimately the people that you call middle class etc could possibly afford to send their children to private school if grammar schools are scrapped and therefore again those without money are deprived of a great education?

And my school was in London

Grammar schools are almost entirely populated by privileged middle class children. So unless you think that such children are inherently cleverer than working class disadvantaged children.......

Ok... did you attend a grammar school? I did and my experience doesn’t sound anything like what you are saying!

Why don't we just accept grammar schools are great for 'middle class' children ( though what determines what is middle and what is working class I don't know) . Any way sod obsessing about the 'great unwashed'. Those being the ones from families and generations , where education is an anathema . What you can do though with all this obsessing is attempt to destroy great schools with no benefit for anyone.

This being all for an attempt for perceived equality across society !

Finally what is wrong with a small part of the state education system, promoting the interests of bright children though selective education. This opposed to throwing scarce resources down a 'money pit' where no calculable gain can be attained !

"Ok... did you attend a grammar school? I did and my experience doesn’t sound anything like what you are saying!"
No I didn't. Do you know anything about grammar schools today?

Not as much as I did then but it wasn’t that long ago, you don’t seem willing to listen to anything I can say and have based your judgement solely on your own prejudices

Not my prejudices. Facts. For example, in the town near me, there are two schools. One grammar, one not. The grammar school has no children who attract pupil premium. The other has 38%. The school’s are a mile apart. There are no grammar schools in the country where the number of pupil premium children comes close to reflecting the atchment cohort.

So what would be the problem if there were grammar schools who had a separate entry pathway for pupil premium children that took a number proportional to the countywide population?

I know that’s not how it’s done, but why would it be bad then?

11+ raw marks in Kent are adjusted according to the age of the student taking the test. So summer born babies get a slight adjustment up, for example.

Saying “Grammar schools (or private schools for that matter) have no interest in levelling the playing field. might be true for some grammars but not all.

Some grammars put all pupil premium students who apply (and pass) at the top of the list (apart from looked after children)

The 89% are in unsatisfactory education because they’ve been rejected at 10/11 years of age and told they’re not bright enough. It is indeed a national disgrace when removing grammar options would prevent the problem entirely.
I did go to grammar from a very poor family but know full well my children got a far superior education in a bog standard comprehensive working and learning alongside peers of all abilities.
Outcomes for all children are better in areas without selective schools.

Academically able children should of course be enabled to thrive. It’s why mine did A levels at 15 in a comprehensive. It’s why they had opportunities to study the AQAbaccalaureat and obtain the equivalent of 6As at A level. It’s why they we’re offered extension and enrichment programmes that encouraged them to develop their interests whilst supporting less able peers.

In ye olden days the teachers, school would look at child's whole schooling and put dc forward and it was much more personal.
Now it's not. It's solely on exam.

Academically able children should of course be enabled to thrive

So the problem is that some academically able children need the atmosphere of a grammar to thrive. My DD doesn’t cope well with massive groups of people, she finds it overwhelming and stressful.

I’m beyond grateful she has been given the chance to be in a school that has less than 1/3 the number of pupils of the other secondaries we applied to. Thriving at school isn’t only about the academic opportunities, but the full pastoral experience.

Plenty of small comprehensives. Many large comprehensives divided into smaller units. Few actually get swamped and not sure why only those who pass 11 plus should have the advantage of smaller cohorts.