Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

HMRC are going to tax agency workers back 20 years

141 replies

Pirie · 25/09/2018 23:26

So it appears many of us working through agencies are going to get life changing bills from the revenue:

How can this be real. Anyone had a brown envelope about this yet?

OP posts:
serbska · 01/10/2018 09:35

Thanks @Xenia and @C8H10N4O2 for your informed posts, I do love a good tax discussion.

Pirie · 01/10/2018 23:38

“ I do love a good tax discussion.”

Don’t think we’ve had one yet!

Hasn’t Rangers screwed the Loan Charge anyway. The point at which tax should have been paid was when money passed from in their case the football club to the player! Whether it then went on to a EBT which lent it back to the footballer was regarded as irrelevant by the SC. So why is U.K. Gov still pursuing the little guys and not the big guys who paid them the money in the first place?

On a more serious note, there maybe some who are watching this thread as more than an inflated cranium, pious, ego trip!

OP posts:
Pirie · 01/10/2018 23:42

That’s pious in the sense that god is replaced by HMRC!

OP posts:
Pirie · 02/10/2018 01:10

“But if your agency always did a tax form for each new temp or contract job, as was the norm in the 20yrs I've contracted via various agencies, surely you're OK ”

This is the point of the original posting, unfortunately, the HMRC drones have done their utmost to bury it!

As I said earlier there may be people watching this thread who are v worried about this!

OP posts:
Xenia · 02/10/2018 07:32

I can't see how anyone thought taking your contractor payments by way of these loan schemes would work and was not dodgy and I am not in the pay of HMRC. I am just a self employed sole trader who has always paid a lot of tax.

www.thegazette.co.uk/all-notices/content/101294 The summary there is pretty clear and people can read the full Supreme Court judgment if they want to.

PiperPublickOccurrences · 02/10/2018 07:59

So right back to the OP " Anyone had a brown envelope about this yet?"

No OP. Just you. Because you're so special.

Everyone else either identified it as a dodgy scheme and didn't touch it with a bargepole, or knew exactly what they were getting into and are now facing paying the consequences.

But you plough on with the "nasty HMRC going after the little person" line.

Anniegetyourgun · 02/10/2018 08:40

I recall from the R4 programme, though, that some low earners were caught in this, having been given (by their own account) little or no choice - take this scheme or don't take the job. It seems the advantage here would be for the employer or umbrella company which didn't need to pay NI etc for the apparently very low-paid worker. Whilst I wouldn't argue the debts should be pursued, I do think there needs to be some consideration for the (possibly very small) number of employees/contractors who benefit very little or not at all from the arrangement.

Whilst Xenia has been doing sterling work on this thread, I'd just like to take issue with the comment that the income tax threshold is too high so that people are less engaged in society because they are not putting into the communal pot. The current income tax allowance is £11,500. Fair enough if it's a "pin money" second household income, but you couldn't live on it (unless rent/mortgage free). It's no good saying people "ought" to be earning more - some jobs, which society still requires to be done, don't pay well, and there are only 24 hours in the day whether you're rich or poor. So why take money off someone you're only going to have to subsidise through another route? There are other ways than taxes to feel engaged in society. Struggling to put food on the table isn't likely to be one of them.

Anniegetyourgun · 02/10/2018 08:42

After all that lengthy composing and editing, I've spotted an error. "Whilst I wouldn't dispute that the debts should be pursued..."

LakieLady · 02/10/2018 10:32

Tax is theft

Tax is the price you pay for living in a civilised society where socially essential services are funded centrally and paid for collectively. It's part of the social contract.

Tax evasion/avoidance is theft, and takes from all of us.

LakieLady · 02/10/2018 10:49

So why is U.K. Gov still pursuing the little guys and not the big guys who paid them the money in the first place?

Presumably, because they can only go after the person who should have paid the tax, not the person (or entity) that should have collected it under PAYE.

If companies misusing staff by claiming they were self-employed were liable for unpaid tax and penalties, I daresay there would have been a lot less money lost.

Xenia · 03/10/2018 16:24

yes the issue of what should be our single person allowance (those lucky enough to get any single person tax allowance at all of course - some of us don't get one) is hard. The staet fond that a lot of families were paying £3k tax and getting £2k tax credits wihch was a silly money go round of money so better not to bother them with tax at all on lower earnings but then if you don't pay income tax at all that means you feel less like we are all in this together and you'd be more than happy with 99% rate of tax on some people even as you aren't paying any income tax. On the hand the large single person allowance could mean a family with 4 non working grandparents, 5 children get could have 10 or 11 people in the business taking out money all with their £11k odd single person allowance ove r£100k tax free because they spread it around a large family. which is not too fair on the one income famly with a spouse and 2 children.

On the contractor thing some contractors are applying for a judicial reivew (which they may not win) only relating to the closed tax years in the past (it will not affect accelerated payment notices issued and current and non closed years )

I don't like HMRC saying they will challenge avoidance (a perfectly legal activity very different from criminal evasion). They like to muddy the waters at times.

"Contractors plan Judicial Review against HMRC over loan charge

A pressure group representing the self employed and freelancers plans to launch a judicial review against HMRC’s 2019 Loan Charge which will affect up to 50,000 contractors

Acting on the advice of leading tax barrister Robert Venables QC, the Loan Charge Action Group (LCAG), are mounting a legal challenge on the basis that the schemes for self-employed people which come under the scope of HMRC’s Loan Charge were mis-sold to them by employers and accountants.

The LCAG argue that the tax being pursued by HMRC should be paid by employers rather than those working for them, and that the charge represents an unfair retrospective tax.

The 2019 Loan Charge was introduced by Finance (No. 2) Act 2017. HMRC describes it as a tax charge on ‘employment related taxable loans made by third parties on or after 6 April 1999 brought within Part 7A ITEPA 2003 if they remain outstanding on 5 April 2019’. Effectively the government is clamping down on the use of tax-free loans as salary substitutes under schemes which are now deemed to be unacceptable tax avoidance schemes.

If the Judicial Review is successful, LCAG says the underlying tax situation will not be resolved but that the retrospective element of the charge will be reduced as HMRC will not be able to pursue closed years.

In advice to members, it says: ‘Closed years should remain out of reach by HMRC as your normal taxpayer protections will have been restored. Open years will still be able to be pursued by HMRC. APN’s will remain. But it does mean that HMRC will need to continue their enquiries and can be pushed to conclude these, which then means there is an option for the conclusion to those enquiries to be challenged through the proper processes. Currently HMRC are being very slow to conclude enquiries, possibly because the Loan Charge is on the horizon.’

The Judicial Review will be heard by the High Court in April/May 2019 and judgment is expected in July after which either party may appeal to the Supreme Court.

Those workers who have already reached or intend to reach a settlement with HMRC prior to the declaration deadline 30 September 2018 will not be affected by the outcome.

An HMRC spokesperson said: 'In the interests of the vast majority of taxpayers who play by the rules, we challenge tax avoidance whenever it occurs and will vigorously defend this action.' "

DGRossetti · 03/10/2018 16:35

I don't like HMRC saying they will challenge avoidance (a perfectly legal activity very different from criminal evasion). They like to muddy the waters at times.

Many years ago, when I had an accountant, I recall them saying that it was possible to link together a series of tax avoidance measures - every single one legal, and above board - in such a way that they would "consider" it evasion, and proceed accordingly.

No one likes paying more tax than absolutely necessary. But given the ability of HMRC to really fuck your life up, there's a certain validity in treating a little "extra tax" as peace-of-mind money, keeping them off your back. And if people feel that analogy is a little too close to the description of protection rackets operated by the likes of the Krays, well, that's probably because it is.

Xenia · 03/10/2018 21:55

DGR, that's correct and there is also these days a Geeneral anti avoidance rule too and obligation to notify tax schemes to HMRC but despite that I still think they should avoid the word avoidance. If they don't want to use evasion they should use something else like - not paying the full tax that is due under the law.

Pirie · 04/10/2018 22:52

“I don't like HMRC saying they will challenge avoidance (a perfectly legal activity very different from criminal evasion). They like to muddy the waters at times. ”

X, you are suddenly talking my language ! They indeed have spent a lot of money thro an outfit called Behavioural Sciences, otherwise known as the “nudge” unit to convince the public that HMRC considered that this tax planning never worked and that those who employed it were morally repugnant. So, consider this, where is the legal precedent to back up HMRCs assertion that these strategies never worked?

OP posts:
Pirie · 06/11/2018 22:19

Anyone affected by this may be interested in:

www.hmrcloancharge.info/news/lcag-press-release-6th-november-2018/

OP posts:
planechocolate · 06/11/2018 23:02

Well, I've RTFT and there's half an hour of my life I'm not going to get back.

Over the years I've had the misfortune to have worked for several businesses that have had visits from HM Inspectors. I have found, on more than one occasion, that I have had to explain their own tax rules back to them Grin

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread