To leave the NHS

[Jennywren100]

Just that really. Worked in the NHS nearly 20 years. I'm a senior doctor in a front line speciality and I just don't think I can go on. There is no option to move into private practice (there is no private practice in my speciality in the UK), but feel sad at the thought of chucking in nearly a quarter of a century of training (if you include medical school) and experience.

The list of reasons for leaving is varied and long and I know many colleagues feel similarly to me but either have better coping mechanisms than me, care less, or for various reasons leaving simply isn't an option. And I know my department is actually better than many.

I already work part time and took extended leave over the summer to see if a break would help. It hasn’t. My colleagues love me and value me - they regularly tell me, so it’s not about feeling undervalued in my team. It’s about being completely overwhelmed in a failing system......and the public having not one scoobie of an idea that their beloved NHS is about to implode as they daily pour through the doors with an ever increasing list of demands and sense of entitlement and an ever decreasing sense of responsibility for themselves.

I feel like I will have wasted most of my life if I leave but I spend my day being super nice to patients and relatives and come home and am grumpy and miserable to DH and DC - the people who mean most to me in the world. Its all wrong. I have absolutely no idea what I would do if I left. There must be other MNers who feel like this?

Senior doctor here too. Several years a consultant in the NHS.

2 years on I’m typing this from a beautiful home on the coast, half an hour from one of the major Australian cities.

I’m paid nearly twice as much, for one day a week less. I’m paid all my hours, including when I come back on call. Management seek my opinion and listen to me. My patients are grateful for they’re care and not looking for an excuse to sue me. And I see my kids much more.

Public hospitals here are not perfect but they’re a massive leap up from the NHS.

Get out OP. While you still can. The NHS is the perfect example of a monopoly employer abusing power. You owe it nothing.

I wondered how long it would be before this was blamed on immigration..

The fact of the matter is that people are living longer with more complex illnesses and A&E is stretched because it is used completely wrong.

Trusts don't have enough money because of the fat cats sat at the top who take home astronomical salaries and have no clue about what their trusts actually need to operate.

Jenny I completely and utterly agree and understand everything you are saying. I’m NHS too, on the admin side, sort of 20 years last month (started with lab work in school holidays, 2 health degrees later and I never left).

The front line is shit. In my last job I'd regularly still be there at 9/10pm (my record was 3am and my start time was always 9am - I was a band 4)

And now? I work in quality in a CCG. So all the problems you have with bloods etc etc, alerts and root cause analyses come into my team. We connect the dots and try to instigate positive changes.

if I'd have stayed at the front line I'd probably be 6 ft under by now (breakdown - despite working my arse off it was never enough - the clinical team repeatedly cancelled their NHS clinics to boost their private practise). But the CCG is the polar opposite.

Please please don't leave and take your knowledge with you - its precious. Can you see if there is another area you can move into?

Op I really feel for you. How anyone survives working in ED I do not know. Am more than 25 years as a nurse and it’s changed so much (and I remember the ‘bad old days’ of the last Tory government- we’ll this has been worse). Fucking austerity has a lot to answer for.

I feel the clinical team support each other and they and the patients (who are mostly lovely) are the reasons I stay. And my department is fortunate enough to have a great general management team, although nursing (non clinical) senior leadership is awful, bullying and belittling -and if I have to hear one more time about efficiencies and savings while we clinical staff are worked to the bone I will cheerfully throttle them.

Life’s too short, take some time out and plan your next move. There are other jobs both in the nhs and outside of it that are less horrid. Your qualification and experience mean you are very employable. The doctors who I work with who are least stressed seem to be those employed by universities or Pharma. I’m sure there are other avenues.

Have you considered moving to another country? Doctors have a much better chance of getting a visa to work places like the US then other professions. The healthcare system isn't perfect there (or anywhere really) but there are more options for a doctor there. Private practice can be lucrative and much more relaxed there.

I left the NHS for similar reasons. I loved my actual job role, felt great pride in my team and it was a privilege to be part of people's lives and help in whatever small way I could in their darkest times. However, eventually and after every stress management/mindfulness/sing away stress course going, I left.

I couldn't cope with watching my demoralised colleagues go under and patients have a shitter service than ever before, after a so-called public consultation on my specialty.

I had some time off then moved to a different specialty and now work for a charity. We are contracted into support local NHS and CC services and it reminds me why I left.

You have to think of yourself and for me it got to the stage where I'd hope for a mild car accident to not have to go to work and was told my colleagues did the same before I thought enough is enough.

Omg I thought I was the only one wishing for a mild accident to keep me off work a bit legitimately but not serious!!

But even that does t help I know of several colleagues who have had broken limbs and are told "it's Ok, wear a boot and you can still work..." they've subsequently done further damage through constantly walking around on fractures that don't have time to heal

So many of my past colleagues thought this way. It was a terrible way to live!

Are you on Facebook? There’s a group on there hat may be of interest to you where people have asked the exact same question as you (PM me to know more).

Otherwise, we’re so institutionalised in the NHS. If you went to medschool in your late teens, then worked up the ranks, it’s all you ever know, and the prospect of doing anything else is petrifying. I remember when the MTAS debacle happened, and I wondered what on earth I was going to do if I didn’t get a job. I honestly couldn’t think of another tangible career. I was terrified!

Anyway, I’ve been a consultant in another acute specialty for a few years now. I’m generally happy at the moment, but not sure I can see myself doing this for another 25/30yrs!

YANBU. My dd started as an F1 ( junior doctor) in august. Absurdly long days spent largely on the phone organising scans, chasing bloods which frankly should all be doable on line or at least by an admin person. She has to work extra hours which she is supposed to be paid for or given time off in lieu but can't take leave as there aren't enough staff. Constantly bleeped during breaks. Had to fight to get a day off for a grandparents funeral. Then evening shifts when she's the only doctor around in charge of 40 patients most of whom she's never met.
The NHS only keeps going thanks to the goodwill of the staff and it's not fair. The money wasted and lack of technology is chronic. The system is failing and not fit for purpose. Yet the myth of the wonderful NHS is perpetuated by the media.
Could you go to Australia as my dd is planning asap?

I left the NHS (mental health services) two years ago and it was, without question, the best decision I ever made. I have less money now, but I feel like myself again. I actually have a life outside of work, something that a lot of NHS staff are conditioned to think is a luxury they aren't entitled to. I don't think you fully appreciate what an absolute shit-show it is on the NHS frontline until you're safely out of it as you have to detach yourself to a certain extent in order to force yourself to keep going in every day. Now I wonder how I kept going for so long.

The ridiculous targets, the blame culture, wave upon wave of costly and impractical new "initiatives" that just make the job harder, the constant guilt that you're letting patients down because you're spread so thin you can't give the standard of care they deserve, being shouted at and hearing yourself apologise over and over for weaknesses in the system that aren't even remotely your fault, having to buy essential resources and equipment out of your own pocket when you haven't had a pay rise for donkey's years, doing admin at home every single night while your DC are babysat by Cbeebies (more guilt) and then having to remain calm and non-judgemental while an entitled patient shouts in your face "I pay your wages, you know!" when you've patiently explained to them for the fifth time that the medication/therapy they're demanding (thank you, Dr Google) isn't actually indicated for their particular problem.

I vividly remember being on my way to work one day and having thoughts of deliberately driving my car into a wall so I wouldn't have to go in. I wouldn't have done it, but just having the thought frightened me enough that I realised I couldn't carry on like I was.

Get out OP. Life's too short

Good for you OP. I'm a GP so I share all your views.
Someone should link this thread for the mums of medicine applicants in the higher education forum

YANBU. Wish I could. 30 years as Nurse here. I am broken.

Yanbu, I'm a nurse (community) worked for the NHS 15 years. It is shocking how bad things are at the moment.

What's sad is that I love my job, I love seeing patients and have the privilege of caring for some very poorly people.

What I don't love is feeling the constant pressure when I'm with a patient that I can't chat or stay a minute longer as I have to as I have at least 10 more patients to get to.

We are also not given the correct equipment and our health and safety is constantly disregarded.

I also feel like the NHS get the best of me and my dd gets frazzled, tired, grumpy me!!

My problem is I have no clue what else I could do, possibly in may look to go into a more specialist post.

I worked in the NHS (non clinical) for almost 20 years and recognise so much of what you're all saying. My stepdaughter starts her first nursing job in January and I dread seeing her idealism and enthusiasm dented as I know it will be.

The trouble is that the more of you who leave, the worse it's going to get. Not that there's any reason why you shouldn't. We only get one life.

I left the NHS after 25 years and was really distressed by this. My SIL reminded me that I had given plenty and was still young enough to make other choices and so are you. I’m not entirely sure that law conversion wouldn’t be a fat to fire scenario however!

There must be other ways to consider utilising your skills with less retraining? Or take a break and then do something absolutely different if that’s within your reach. I know a consultant who left her post and became a fashion designer.

I hope your day was bearable.

YANBU My DH is a consultant at a big regional centre, feels the same way and says you really aren't alone in feeling this way.

We have been seriously thinking about our future here. He does do some private work but we live in an area that it would be hard to completely switch to that as his income stream. He also likes the idea of the NHS however working for it in the current climate for a broke trust, with never ending stress, more and more being demanded for less, facilities and staff being cut to the bone yet being blamed frontline for the failings these circumstances cause is taking its toll. We aren't too far from moving abroad and finding somewhere more sustainable in terms of balance and our sanity. His specialism is quite good for this but it's a big step. This year has been the closest we've been to it although it's been on the table since Hunt started.

thank you everyone. Yes, we have seriously considered Australia (we went and checked out jobs, schools housing etc), but have decided against it as I'd miss my family too much. We've also considered the US, ironically because without doing a whole heap of exams and hoop jumping I couldn't work there,.....but DH could get a transfer tomorrow (he isn't medical).

I've linked the thread to the 2019 medicine threads....I've often thought of just writing 'why would you want your child to do this???'

Today a colleague spent FOUR hours today trying to get a surgical speciality (in another hospital) to accept a critically unwell patient. they refused to even review the scans.It was heartbreaking. And there was no junior doctor covering speciality X (can't be too specific), so the poor med reg was left covering the take patients AND all the patients under this speciality. And Jeremy Hunt wanted a 7 day service....we don't even have a 5 day service.

Off for a few days now......and breath.

I could always start a blog about the hideous NHS and have it sponsored by private medical companies???

This is really disheartening. I've just applied to return to nursing, currently working in education. I last worked in the NHS in 2013 and it was bad then. I totally understand why people want to leave. My view is at least I will get a decent wage as a nurse. In education the stress is high and pay is shocking unless you are a teacher. I'm responsible for safeguarding in a large primary in a deprived area and I get paid 9k per year. Public sector is a crap place to work.

@Jimdandy

That’s simply not the case- the NHS is consistently found to be a very efficient healthcare system, for example by the independent government body the OBR.

The idea it just needs to be run like a private business is part of the pervasive malicious Tory campaign to sow mistrust in a great system that they are strangling to death. It just needs more money.

Have you considered Canada?

@NommyChompers

I disagree. The paperwork and bureacracy is beyond a joke. I said it in 1999 when Labour was in power and I’ll say it now.

@nommychompers it really doesn't need more money. The NHS was set up to save life and limb, not provide every imaginable treatment for every patient (or their family) that thinks they need it along with free transport to and from every appointment, with no onus at all on the public to take any responsibility for their own health. I read this week about a girl with complex medical needs who has managed to get a place at a US university and got the NHS to agree to fund her care while she is in the US. WTF. Seriously?
I worked with a lovely charge nurse who was acting matron for 2 years. When the permanent post was advertised he decided he wouldn't go for it. In the normal world (i.e. not public sector), that means he has to find another job. But not in the NHS. They created an entirely unnecessary £60k management job. When I asked about this I was told 'He has a family and a mortgage and he's been with the trust a long time'. I kid you not. Another example. A medical director (probably earning the region of £200k)in charge of improving a failing Trust. Well, he failed to improve the failing trust, but is apparently too expensive to sack (because in the NHS when you can't do your job you can't apparently be sacked you either get moved sideways or up), so was moved to work for NHS Improvement. Having failed to improve one hospital, he is moved into a role to improve the entire NHS. Meanwhile nurses rely on food banks.
It really doesn't need more money.

Are you me ? Almost 30 years now — working frontline gp and increasingly part time to try to achieve some balance but after an increasingly stressful work load with increased risk of potential errors associated with that I felt myself starting to burn out . Having taken some time off work to ensure I made the right decision I have now resigned. I enjoy my job ( when I can do my best for patients ) but the strain has been becoming too much . I never thought this would happen. Life is too short however and I am finding my old self again. Sad that it comes to this .
I have a small alternative role which uses my skills. I may go back to some clinical medicine- if I can find some way of practicing that works for me .

I’m shocked (appalled?!) to hear an consultant say the NHS does not need more money.

No system is immune to side-dealing and nepotism, but a bad anecdote doesn’t change the fact the NHS Is being starved of funds. The budget is increasing by 1.1% a year , when its lifetime average is 4%, and demands continue to increase. In January only 77% of A+E patients were seen in the governments 4h target, we saw elective operations cancelled in the thousands over winter, and doctors and nurses continue to flee citing shite pay.

Exactly how much cash do you think could be freed up with efficiency savings? I’m guessing not enough to pay nurses and doctors well enough to effect good staff retention while also expanding capacity to ensure patients are seen in line with government targets (and in bays, not corridors)

Nurses are relying on food banks because the Tory’s have overseen years of real terms pay cuts, and it makes me sick.

I agree patients unrealistic expectations is part of the issue, and I’m not even averse to means tested payments for some aspects of healthcare, but this is not the whole issue, and not enough to save the NHS at this stage.