to think siblings should have priority in secondary schools

[Allotment123]

My daughter goes to a school we are out of catchment for. However it had space and was better than the local school, hence we sent her there. As it is improving it is unlikely we will get her siblings in. It is OUR NEAREST school, but due to ridiculous local boundaries, it is not our catchment school. Okay I have a personal beef about this, but for everyone's sakes, teachers, families etc, wouldn't it be better if siblings followed through, rather than we all adopted a random lottery approach when it comes to secondary and children are driven miles across the city?

In London it's very common not to be in catchment for your closest school. It's called oversubscription! There are plenty who have to walk past several primary schools en route to taking their kids to school. Blame Ofsted and whichever Government decided that we needed a "choice" of 6 in state schooling.

In going out of catchment you take the risk of not getting in if school full with catchment. Catchment pupils must take priority. Our education authority is changing its priority list from next year for putting siblings further down the list for secondary school. Priority being given tjose in associate primary schools which will further allow them to prioritise local pupils - law in Scotland prevents them from prioritising local siblings over outside sinlings. These changes have received wide spread suppory from residents - our schools for our pupils.

I've heard of Graveney, and it doesn't have catchments. There are Cat1 selective places (by distance)

And then Cat2 the rest which are LAC, siblings, exceptional need, children of staff, all others (tiebreak by distance)

They have fiddled with whether Cat1 pupils should confer sibling priority, and for a while had a complete buggers muddle whereby Cat1 did only if they wouid also have qualified underCat2 (something hitch the family were not actually told at time of entry, they were just offered Cat1 place) and which was very difficult tomreverse engineer.

Perhaps abolishing it at that school might be fairer in some ways. not sure if other nearby schools have sibling priority at all.

Squirmofeels
I think in this discussion we are talking about "by distance" rather than catchments. I don't know of any schools in London that has a formal catchment with set boundaries, it is all done by distance which can vary year to year.

From the opening post:

"It is OUR NEAREST school, but due to ridiculous local boundaries, it is not our catchment school"

It is a thread about schools with a catchment, not about the need to live close. As the many posts above about catchments (not distance) show.

Some London schools have catchments (mainly VA ones, specifying parishes, but some others too) but not Graveney. And in London, living in catchment is often not sufficient as the actual admissions footprint can be quite a bit smaller.

Most secondary schools near us do have sibling priority. Only the grammars don't have sibling priority which I fully agree with. I won't be sending dd to our catchment school, its shit. Luckily we have a priority for another secondary which her primary is a feeder to and another nearby school which doesn't have a catchment just uses straight line distances. Funny that our catchment school also covers an area of town 3 miles away from the school much to the dismay of parents living there!

If your children’s oudl all be attending the school at the same time you should absolutely get sibling rights. Anything else is just a nonsense and would deter me from applying in the first place.

No.

Out of catchment sibling priority is a fucking crime and contributes to rich people buying or renting a house in catchment to get their first born into the school, then moving out to a cheaper area and all their siblings following through into the school, leaving children who live closer having tot travel much further.

Should be:
LAC
In-catchment siblings
In-catchment others
Out of catchment siblings
Out of catchment others

Sorry I don’t agree they should at secondary level as kids are old enough to get themselves to school by then. I paid a huge amount of money to buy a house I a good area to make sure my kids got a good primary school and a good secondary school. Why should they then not get in because kids out with catchment have taken spaces up? Yes if there are spaces left absolutely siblings should get in but it should only be once they are sure they have spaces.

Secondary school kids should be making their own way to school. School buses or walking etc

A580 Hurlingham Academy has a catchment. We're slap bang in the middle of it.

Meant to say "in Fulham."

One of my DDs went to a very over subscribed non- selective girls school in London, the only one in the borough. The borough itself is a very odd and illogical shape ( ie you would not design it that way from a standing start, it’s got historical and oddities) and the LA has always had to deal with the conflicting arguments of ‘ we don’t stand a chance if it is done purely by distance at this end of the weird shape’ and ‘ but we live quite close, of course we should get in ‘. Added to that, they used to use a catchment preference determined by old link primary schools that went out of borough. They had a quite complicated formula at the time that we applied, involving chopping the whole area up into pieces and determine distance from points within that. It was quite tricky to understand - we had one of these notional lines running right through our house and they said they would give us the benefit of the doubt ie which ever side gave the more positive result !

Interesting to see that they have now simplified this internal catchment thing hugely and introduced a sibling preference , after looked after and social/medical need.

Where there is the ability to voice a preference and oversubscrption, there will always be controversy.

My DD1 went to a different secondary school and it didn’t cause any problems - minor variations in inset days and finish times but at secondary it does not matter in the same way as primary. And they both caught the bus, in opposite directions, as did 90% of the pupils around here.

If you want to know who to blame/thank for the beginning of preference circus ( later political shenanigans added to this) look up the Greenwich Judgement .

Catchments is a misleading word.
Graveney doesn't have a catchment area. It offers some placed based on proximity to the school which varies quite a lot year to year.

This year, there was an unexpected "sibling bulge" (school's words) and the furtherest distance a place was offered shrank to 470m.

I don't know if you're able to picture this distance but it isn't very far.
We know people who's neighbours got their kids in the year before and this year, their kids didn't get in. We know people who got one child in and then moved back to a different part of SW London and got all the siblings in.

Out of 273 places, only 77 went to kids that live close to the school that didn't already have siblings there.

There are 7 primary schools within 800m of the school, between then there are roughly 540 children finishing Yr 6 each year. Some will be siblings of kids already at Graveney, but many more won't be.

So, no I don't think the siblings policy is very fair, but it is also very unlikely to change.

“ I feel like emotionally I've invested a lot in the school, supporting PTAs, understanding curriculum evenings, ways of working, organising cake bakes for staff etc, so although my next child can go to another school, as a parent I would rather really support one school, get to know the staff etc. And assumed for staff it would be helpful if they knew you and your family. In primary it seems to make a difference, maybe not in secondary?”

Why should people with the time/inclination/resources to do pta stuff get preferential treatment? I appreciate the help that pta parents provide at both my dcs’ schools, but to give them priority in any way would discriminate against those pf us who are simply unable to attend meetings/bake cakes/help out at events. There are many reasons why people physically cannot do these things: they may be single parents with younger children and unable to get out in the evening or leave them elsewhere for the day, working long and inflexible hours, have caring responsibilities elsewhere, have disabilities etc. Just take a second to think about the barriers that prevent people doing more pta stuff, and ask yourself if it really is fair that the children of those people should be put at a disadvantage.

“ I feel like emotionally I've invested a lot in the school, supporting PTAs, understanding curriculum evenings, ways of working, organising cake bakes for staff etc, so although my next child can go to another school, as a parent I would rather really support one school, get to know the staff etc. And assumed for staff it would be helpful if they knew you and your family. In primary it seems to make a difference, maybe not in secondary?”

Do most people really get that invested in a secondary school? I might have gone to the odd curriculum meeting (and the curriculum surely wont' be that dissimilar in another school?) but that's about my only forays into school other than parents' evening. I currently have a DC in Year 10 and one in Year 8. I think the only member of staff I would say I "know" is the Head of Music - and that's because both DC are musical and get involved in a lot of curricular as well as having him teach their classes. Most other members of staff I wouldn't even recognise if I passed them in the street.

No, because you've chosen an out of catchment school. Children in the catchment, even if it's a daft one, deserve the spot more than a child out of catchment.

Siblings in catchment, then other children in catchment, then siblings out of catchment.

OP, you can’t seriously believe that your DC should have priority over children that live in catchment when you don’t!

For an out of catchment school I think you should only get sibling priority if a catchment change has knocked you out (i.e. you lived in catchment when child one started school, haven't moved, but are now out of catchment.) My catchment high school is middling at best, my closest school is the best in the city. I'll probably do a cheeky placing request when the times comes but I'd have no expectations for siblings.

Where it's done by the wonderful distance lottery (as I understand it is in some places, I'm in Scotland) then I think that provided you haven't moved further away from the school DC1 got in to, then subsequent DC should get priority too. I don't think you should be in the situation where you list your 6 closest schools in order of distance, identically for each child, and end up with them at different schools simply because the entry distances change each year. Less of an issue for high school but unworkable for primary

I think yes for primary school.

For secondary school it's more nuanced. Agree with this I think you should only get sibling priority if a catchment change has knocked you out (i.e. you lived in catchment when child one started school, haven't moved, but are now out of catchment

But if you chose an out catchment school in the first place, or moved out of catchment, then I think kids who've been in catchment the whole time should get priority.

Had we stayed in Essex, we would have ended up with all three dses at different secondary schools - our town had grammar schools, and ds1 and ds2 both took the 11+, but decided to go to different schools. Ds3 did do the 11+ too, but didn't pass high enough to get into either of the grammars the other boys were in, so would have been at our catchment comprehensive.

We did end up with three boys at three different schools - the two older ones at grammar schools, whilst ds3 was still at primary, and on purely logistical grounds, I dreaded it - but actually, it wasn't a huge deal. All three were old enough to walk to and from school on their own, and whilst it did mean a bit of juggling of concerts, sports days, and Parents' evenings etc, plus three different uniforms, it was actually not hard to manage.

We also found that the different schools suited the boys - so it may be that, whilst your other children don't get into the same school as your eldest, @Allotment123, it won't be the problem you think it may be - as long as the other schools are as good as the first one, and they suit the individual child.

I agree with this:

LAC
In-catchment siblings
In-catchment others
Out of catchment siblings
Out of catchment others

I get very irritated with families who take out of catchment schools and then moan about siblings. If the school is that good, move into catchment.

I object more at primary, families who have moved out of the village but younger siblings 2 and then 3 take places over kids from the actual village, who, you know, LIVE THERE

But I do have sympathy with it being your closest school. Catchments can be a nightmare