AIBU to think that this is discrimination?

[Zilla74]

I have recently found out that the English Language GCSE has 20% of the marks awarded for spelling, punctuation and grammar |(SPAG). There is also 5% awarded in other subjects such as English Literature, History and Geography. If a student has spell check enabled or has a scribe they will automatically lose access to the SPAG marks.

My DD is in year 10 and is severely dyslexic, and although she struggles with English is capable in other subjects and is hoping to be able to go to University eventually. However, some of the courses she thinks she might like to attend require a grade 6 (old grade B), but that seems like it will be difficult for her to obtain the required English grade given her spelling difficulties.

I have done an analysis of the 2018 English Language GCSE mark boundaries and it appears that if you can only access 80% of the marks and you achieve the same % on the rest of the paper as someone who can spell, then the person who could spell would get a grade 8 / A* and the student using a scribe or spell check would only receive a grade 6 / B.

Quite honestly, I feel a bit depressed about this – although I do know that it is a first world problem and there are many children who are a lot worse off than she is, but it just feels wrong that the exam system seems to make it hard for people who already have learning difficulties.

AIBU to feel that this is unfair?

It's not discrimnation at all. It's perfectly right that someone who can't spell doesn't get a 6 or a B in an English GCSE.

Would you say it's discrimination if someone with a low IQ didn't get a place on a medical degree, or if someone with dyscalculia didn't get to do Economics.

That said, I understand how it must feel very unfair to you and your dd. The likelihood is though that she will still get a good university course, they often make offers at lower the advertised grades on the day.

Being good at English should not be about spelling and punctuation. It should be about being able to express yourself creatively and eloquently. And understand the complexities of it. I know many English teachers who despair at this marking policy and do believe it to be discriminatory. The 5% allocated to other subjects is also not fair.

@AllyMcBeagle

Thanks for your input

Actually being good at spelling and punctuation is part of being good at English. An important part.

Universities are often happy to be rather flexible with regards to GCSE requirements where a disability that effects part of the course can explain a lower grade.

I'm really in 2 minds about it all.

I don't think grammar marks should be lost for using a computer or scribe, nor punctuation if you dictate it. But the bottom line is quite often other people can't see what word my DD is trying to write, even if I can because I know how she misspells words.

On the other hand, all her grades might end up lower because of her spelling, and that too seems sad.

I do however think that 6th forms should be flexible with English requirements for maths/science A levels. If they find that they usually require comprehension of a grade 6, then a dyslexic should be allowed with a lower grade.

Sounds to me as though the problem lies with the institutions of Higher Education requirements rather than the exam board.

and

I don't think falsely upgrading an English language Mark is the answer, I think the solution is not to require English for a maths degree.

These are good points. University discrimination is covered by s91 of the Act. Again, it would be up to the uni to show that they were justified in requiring English grade 6 as part of their entry requirements using the same test mentioned in my previous posts. I think this would depend on the nature of the course. I did a STEM subject before switching to law and many of the students who spoke English as a second language really struggled because there was still a fair amount of written content to read and to write (dissertations etc) so it might be fair to ask for English grade 6.

It would be worth approaching the universities who require the English grade to check if they will waive that requirement. I hate to say it but it might depend on how popular the course is. My first degree officially required BBB including Maths and a Science but there were lots of people there with Cs and Ds in the end because it was undersubscribed.

YABU. The students who don’t have any help would be disadvantaged in English where clearly spelling is important. From memory the only spelling which is important for geography are subject specific spellings. Which are important to learn.

But spelling and punctuation are pretty fundamental to the English language, and if you were talking about the English Lit exam, I'd think you might have a point.

It simply makes no sense to award a high mark in English to someone who can't do English well. It would make a mockery of the entire system and make grades meaningless.

The problem here isn't that the OPs dd can't get a 6 or above, it's that she may not be able to get onto the degree she wants. I'd suggest that it's the university that needs to make its degrees accessible to anyone who would be capable of success, rather than make the entire GCSE system become farcical.

Oh and I forgot to say good luck to your daughter. We need more women in STEM (I feel like a bit of a traitor for abandoning it to do law...)

I may be wrong, but I thought that if you used an amanuensis in an exam that they would have to note whether or not every word was spelled out by the candidate or not. This would make a difference to the overall mark regarding the percentage that would be automatically deducted for SPAGHETTI.

^^Bloody predictive text!!!! SPAG!

Sorry but yabu. I can understand how you feel about the University course and the way the University works but it isn’t discriminatory to say someone must have good SpAG for marks in an English exam. Spelling is important to English. You can’t give marks to someone who can’t do English well. As a pp said, would you expect someone with dyscalculia to pass a Maths/Economics exam because they have a diagnosis that means they can’t do/understand calculations? It’s sad, but it isn’t unfair of the exam/board. That’s not where the problem lies

This is an interesting article. Surely all these students aren't 'bad' at English. This is the 21st century and there's more importance put on spelling than ever. Doesn't make sense with so much in place in the workplace. We need to encourage creative students not those who can learn by rote to tick the boxes.

l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.itv.com%2Fnews%2Fwales%2F2018-07-19%2Fnumber-of-dyslexic-pupils-obtaining-a-c-grades-falling%2F&h=AT3AMY2B5Yv-QaKsQEt6v5WgbdRDNVUqhWRBFs9O-p6SmuS9Srn71-BExUbrb4r5CcEXaWAaOwFnmJnYDNHcYzgFlBo8oHwZbaM33NGHAaCXOqLWZlc4PS273l_xeBzMGEbGEUdyMgpzGYTlZy4Q9N6AfYan_crkVKCZIQ

@AllyMcBeagle

Thanks very much, she loves her STEM subjects!

Right now she wants to be a Vet or an Engineer, she's great working with her hands, so they seem like a good choice.

I just don't agree that her lack of ability at spelling should prevent her from pursuing those careers.

@chanelreid

Thanks, that's a very interesting article and kind of what I was trying to get at with my post.

I don't think the education system in general works very well for dyslexics.

It's a tricky one. I see your point but - SPAG are key whatever your job.

I did think it was a bit weird when studying languages at uni that dyslexic students were exempt from having to spell foreign words properly. I mean, how then are you assessing them on their SPAG in another language? The entire point of some of the written exams were knowing the right word for something and being able to write it and apply the grammar......

Sadly there seems to be a real lack of understanding about what it means to be dyslexic. Scotland doesn't discriminate like this in exams apparently and Wales has just introduced an act to review the discrimination against dyslexic students in their education system. Just England lagging behind. I really believe it needs to be reviewed.

Is there a lack of understanding. Or just a lack of agreeing with you? Am still waiting to hear whether you think key elements of other exams should be dropped to level the playing field for disabled students who cant do them?

@chanelreid

Yes, I totally agree, dyslexia is not very well understood.

For my DD, it's not about working harder to learn her spellings, I've watched her write the same word out 50 times in order to try to learn to spell it and found that she has spelt it 3 different ways while writing it out. It's not simply a case of learning it.

When she was tested for dyslexia she was also identified at being in the bottom 1% of the population for short term memory, and her processing speed is also very slow. She also has a binocular instability which means that when she tries to read, her eyes find it difficult to track along a line of written words.

All of the above issues are common with dyslexics as far as I am aware.

However, none of them have any impact on her intelligence.

Unfortunately, if we go down this path of 'its discrimination to penalise me if I can't do something because of x', where does it end?

1. I'm only five foot tall. Not my fault. I cannot win the 100m freestyle in the Olympics because of my height and wing span. Unfortunately. Should I get a head start?

1. Dh is clumsy. Not his fault. Should he be given a job as 'handler of China' because it's discrimination otherwise?

1. My sister cannot tell me 50x 3, even though she is amazing at her, utterly unrelated job. Should we allow her to be an accountant as it's discrimination otherwise?

Your dd, unfortunately through no fault of her own, cannot spell. I'm sure she's amazing at lots of things, but she cannot spell. This is an English language exam. That includes spelling.

As I said upthread, rather remove the barriers requiring English for a maths related degree.

Sorry, they're terrible examples.
My point is - exam results should reflect how good you are at that subject. That's the point of them.

Nobody (I hope) is implying your dd isn't intelligent OP. Or that she should automatically barred from university due to her difficulties with spelling. But exams aren't a test of intelligence, rather of knowledge and a range of skills. And in English language spelling, punctuation and grammer are key skills (although I think marks could be given for punctuation and grammar even with a scribe).

@arethereanyleftatall

I agree results should reflect how good you are at the subject. This is the point. My son is top of his class in the top set in English. His teacher says no child comes close in imagination and creativity. His results won't reflect this as although he may well get top marks for content he may have the equivalent of 2 grades knocked off for Spag. This is too much to show how good he is at the subject. Some people with discalcula are very good at difficult maths but their struggle with numbers does not reflect this. Einstein himself was bad at maths and employed mathematicians to prove his theories. I think the education system fails in that it only recognises one type of intelligence and a narrow one at that. The whole system needs an overhaul and yes universities do need to make allowances in their entry requirements and hopefully they will for exceptional students but it shouldn't have to be such a battle.

They are terrible examples as none of them are characteristics protected by law. Disability is.
I would think OP at the point of university application all the information about your dd needs to be included, along with hopefully good predicted grades in all other subjects.