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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think there's a strange disconnect when it comes to "toxic mothers"?

35 replies

Valanice1989 · 11/09/2018 21:42

It seems to me that on many parenting websites (not just MN), the default position tends to be that you shouldn't judge other mothers, most of them are just trying their best, etc. But that only seems to apply to mothers of young children. When adult women post about their mothers, other posters often label her toxic, talk about FOG (fear, obligation and guilt), encourage cutting contact and so on.

Similarly, "happy mum = happy kids" has become a popular catchphrase over the years, but if someone posts that their elderly mother wants to move in with them, they're often told, "you shouldn't agree to it if you'll find it stressful, your mum will just want you to be happy". Which is it?

Mothers of adults are just mothers of children who grew up! I just find the whole thing contradictory. Has anyone else noticed this or am I overthinking it?

OP posts:
Bumpitybumper · 12/09/2018 09:50

@toomuchtooold
I'm so sorry about your childhood and apologise if my post upset you Flowers

I am in agreement with almost everything you write and think I haven't articulated myself well in my previous post. Of course there is a difference between average or even objectively quite poor parenting and abusive parenting and I wasn't trying to minimise that in anyway. I was actually trying clumsily to suggest that as adults we are all susceptible to and capable of crafting our own narratives to justify bad parenting decisions or mistakes. On MN you get one side of the story and some of the parents that may appear to be struggling but well intentioned in their post may actually be straying into abusive territory. Absuive parents may well be in the minority but they do exist and it would make sense that a proportion of MN posters would fall into this category. We would have no way of knowing as I imagine abusive parents actively minimise what they're doing and would be reluctant to admit even to themselves that they are being abusive. I can imagine all of the scenarios you have included in your post being adapted slightly by the adult involved and then being rehashed on MN or IRL to sound reasonable.

I am aware I'm just echoing what you have written in your post as like I said earlier, I think we basically agree. The only other thing I would add is that the line between abusive/imperfect parenting can sometimes be a matter of perspective. There are some things which of course are absolutely objectively abuse but there are others where people's boundaries and views on acceptable behaviour aren't exactly the same. Who has the valid perspective in these kinds of cases is subjective and I think this should be acknowledged as it could explain some of the discrepancy between parents and children's interpretations of childhood incidents.

Padparadscha · 12/09/2018 10:19

It isn’t a contradiction. Seeing your parent as ‘toxic’ usually means they have been so your whole life. It’s only as an adult you can put all the pieces together and reflect in a balanced, mature way on how bad (or not) your childhood was.

Growing up, I was told to excuse my own mother’s mistakes as her ‘trying her best’. If she had written on MN, she would have given you a whole sad story about being a victim of DV, bullied at work, ungrateful, lazy children, parents who expected too much of her time and generally being one of life’s victims. The truth? Both my parents were as bad as each other with DV, physically and mentally - to us kids as much to each other. She was the bully, but as soon as anyone pointed fingers it was instantly turned around, treated her elderly parents as free childcare - not for a few hours, for days on end. Whenever they started getting annoyed, she told them they had no right to get angry with her as ‘she was their daughter’. Did a million awful things that are too painful to talk about. To be told my whole childhood she was ‘trying her best’ and I should try to be a better child was a real mindfuck, took so long to accept I wasn’t a bad kid (or adult).

Every parent is trying their best. I do it now, and we all need validation from time to time. However, behind closed doors we don’t fully know how anyone parents, and sometimes ‘their best’ isn’t good enough and some child will end up posting about it here in 20 years time. It’s not about the title of ‘mother’ - it’s about being a healthy minded adult regardless of your parenting status.

bobbinsand · 12/09/2018 10:30

I started to realise that my DM was a narcissist when I had DCs of my own. The key has been her persistent wail "What a shame they have to grow up!"

Actually, no. It's a privilege to watch your children grow up and see how they develop. I also know a couple of people who lost their primary school age children through illness so her statements disgust me.

Our relationship has disintegrated over the past 20 years. Not helped by my remembering that she threw a hissy fit the week before Christmas when I was 8 years old and gave away all my Christmas presents from my father and his side of the family.I would never do that to my kids, even though I too am divorced, these are not my presents to give away.

I wouldn't dream of barging my way into my DD's house (as per a recent thread). It's all about respect.

Pidlan · 12/09/2018 11:00

Very interesting thread and I have been pondering on this for a while.

I think there are many many parents who find it easier to be a parent to a young child than to a young adult. When they're little, your very job is to shape them, steer them, teach them right from wrong, love them, care for them. You are in control. Yes, practicalities are more tricky, but at least you, the parent, are the one steering the ship.
Then they hit the teenage years and you have to start letting them take control. They make decisions you don't approve of, they make mistakes, they take paths you don't like. It's this loss of control that brings the tension, I think, and I think it's hard for every single parent, not just a small and toxic minority.

It's far, far more stressful to be awake knowing your 16-year-old is at a party at midnight and worrying about how they are, than being kept awake by a grizzly 6-month-old at 3am.

Parents of adults get a raw deal on here generally. There are some that behave terribly, but sometimes I'll read a thread and wonder why parents are meant to be superhuman once we're adults.

FishCanFly · 12/09/2018 13:18

Because most of MN users are mothers of rather young children, almost none will admit "Yes, i'm narcissistic". It's always easy to slag someone else off than admit your own faults.

toomuchtooold · 12/09/2018 15:33

@bumpitybumper thank you for your reply, which was lovely, and I think you're right, we are quite close in our views on this. As you could probably tell this subject tends to trigger a lot of anxiety in me about being believed Smile

I guess I was trying to emphasise that abusers, who are miles away from decent but imperfect parents, will hide behind the "not perfect" label and that is why I'm eager to make a big distinction between abusive and not perfect. But you're right, there is a bit of a spectrum, I mean I've seen that in my own family. There's a spectrum of intent, from they tried and failed to be good, through they didn't prioritize their kids through to they actually derive pleasure from seeing their kids upset. And there's a spectrum of effect as well, depending on which parent it was, how the other parent responded, and what other allies the kid has, family or teachers etc. But I worry every time I see a thread like this that someone who's experienced abuse is going to see this and think, yeah, that's me, it's a matter of perception, my mother/father/whoever is actually really well intentioned, I'm just taking it the wrong way. And then it's a long long detour into family therapy and non violent communication and all these sorts of things that would work fantastically well with people who are nice but misguided, but will just give abusers yet more ammunition against them. When what they actually need is to recognise the abuse for what it is.
It's not easy to recognise as we've both acknowledged. I think you know it if you've seen it, you develop a bit of a nose for it but it's hard to define. One way to know I would say for sure though is to see how they react if you enforce a boundary with them. Something small, like asking them to come to something on time if they're usually late, or telling them no those spoons don't go in that drawer. If they basically take it on the chin, they're a good egg. If it sparks off any gaslighting, the cold shoulder, tons of justifications or if they do as you ask and then find some other way to punish you, then you're dealing with someone who had the potential to make your life extremely unhappy.

Have you read Lundy Bancroft's book about abusers? I can't like I'm on mobile, but he profiles abusers and their methods and it's very good and although it is about abuse of women by men, it works for any relationship including parent/child.

Fishcanfly I've always thought the reason you heard more on here about toxic mothers and MILs is to do with what opportunities exist for toxic people at different times in their lives. My toxic mother was nice enough to my granny - she had no need to try and torment an elderly woman who she didn't live with, she had me and my dad at home to feck about with. Once I moved out she doubled down on my dad and when he died it was only then that she started giving us grief again. Your range of victims decreases as you get older.

I'm also, I have to say this again, it's a weird argument to me that if I accept that my mother is toxic, I should worry more that my kids might not want to know me when they are older. Surely they're more at risk of ditching me if I expose them to her? Which would be an act of abuse, to have her in contact with them, that's what my therapist said, and I agree with her.

FishCanFly · 12/09/2018 16:05

It is true that emotional vampires have one particular target for their venom, i.e. spouse. When that one dies or leaves, they find another victim.
However, relationships usually don't turn sour when one turns 18. Resentments had been planted before.
I often see people bragging about punishments they dish out to their kids and if they were upset, it means they learned the lesson. Adults most likely will have some very bitter memories.

differentnameforthis · 13/09/2018 10:04

I am not sure what you are asking. Are you saying that people should put up with their toxic parent/s?

Because if so, do you have a toxic parent?

differentnameforthis · 13/09/2018 10:11

Yes, I've noticed too how many posters have toxic mothers. I wonder what their relationship with their grown up children will be like.

Well in my case, my parents separated, and my dad didn't treat me like shit, my mum did. So I don't hate my dad, and I do hate my mum.

I don't think you can make such generalizations, and all but insinuating that we withdraw because it's convenient. No, some mothers are just nasty.

stargirl1701 · 13/09/2018 17:30

I thought happy mum=happy baby was a Netmums thing. I only see it here very rarely.

Parenting is surely the ability to put your needs behind your child's needs. This is obviously easier to do if your own needs as a baby/child were met.

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