To think a 101 year old should not wait on the floor for an ambulance for 2 hours

[ScottishG]

My lovely grandfather, aged 101 had a fall in the early hours of this morning. He has a care alarm which he pressed. My parents, who usually help him out we're away, so a neighbour was contacted by the careline. She went to his house and found him on the floor, cold and a bit confused but otherwise seemingly ok. Careline caller advised that grandfather should be kept still on the floor and neighbour should not attempt to get him up. Careline called for an ambulance. TWO HOURS later paramedics arrived. He was given a thorough check, helped up and settled back into bed. Paramedics are very apologetic about the wait.
I am not in any way complaining about the kind, professional paramedics who helped him.
AIBU though to think a 101 year old on the floor should not be such a low priority that he has to wait for 2 hours?

Agree Kitkat, thanks for that, made absolute sense.

It's unfortunate, but this is a direct consequence of the cuts of the last decade. If you want to change it, then you need to get out and vote for a party that will do differently.

A non urgent case will always be lower priority, but if A&E was properly resourced, the ambulance situation would be far better. A&Es are creaking at the seams, and inability to hand patients over causes huge delays. It's appalling, but this is what the country votes for every time the Tories get back in.

Many ambulances are now privately run (Arrive etc) so not all the government funds they receive are spent on the service - there is a return for shareholders built in.

For the baby with sepsis - if the parents were able to take the baby in, why didn't they do so to start with? If you can get the patient to A&E yourself safely, there is no reason to call an ambulance.

It was a doctors decision for the ambulance. One parent on her own, doctor thought it have been safer to go in the ambulance.

The frustration comes, I think, when it is not the case that the ambulance is attending a higher priority emergency. The paramedic in ds's case said that, in his opinion, the priority had not been set high enough.

The problem is that the dispatcher is making the decisions based on the information they have been given and they have to make the decisions quickly. The paramedic had the benefit of hindsight.

It’s a shit situation and I don’t think there is a perfect solution (other than throwing money at it to provide more paramedics and ambulances)

Even with more ambulances, without improving hospital and A&E staffing there will still be delays in handing patients over. Ambulances aren't allowed to leave a patient until they have been taken by the hospital. Which requires staff, a bed etc.

Thanks for your thoughts everyone. Sorry to hear that so many others have had similar or longer waits for an ambulance.
A residential home would of course be safer for my grandfather. However, he absolutely doesn't want this. He currently sleeps in the bed he shared with his beloved wife of 60 years, in the home he has lived in for more than 50 years. He is mentally very alert and able to make decisions. We want to respect this, even though he would be safer in a care home, but will need to rethink if he continues to fall.
I'm off to see how he's doing this morning. Fingers crossed his cold hasn't got any worse.

Yes. So even more money.

I'm sorry he had to wait so long. It's such a worry isn't it?
My FIL has to wait 2 hours for an ambulance last year whilst he was having a heart attack. He nearly died but unfortunately there were no ambulances available and he was not allowed to be moved by his wife.
Luckily he survived.

We have a service here which consists of a car with a paramedic or nurse and a care assistant on board. It's available only to people over 65 and referrals come through 999 calls at night. It seems to have helped a lot and I'm not sure why it hasn't been adopted elsewhere.

Although a lot of the ambulance service issues are down to funding and being held up offloading at hospitals it should be said that they also get sent to lots of calls which are frankly a waste of their time . IMO the message should be if you can get to the hospital via any other means then that’s what you do . Ambulances should not be a taxi service .

When I had to go into A&E recently it was shocking. The neighbouring hospital had shut their A&E down completely that evening 😱 some people's nearest A and E was over an hour away. I got given a bed after collapsing and having chest pains but in the neighbouring bed people were being kicked out every few minutes including one who had collapsed been sick wife found him on floor out of it and he was awaiting an urgent heart operation. He was seen eventually.

Does your grandfather have any support at all? Like does he have carers that go round? I don't know if they still do them but my granny had a supported flat so meals on wheels went round, she had a help cord and some live in person would come to help. Still had her own flat and garden though and could walk to shops. In hospital they were calling social services to put carers in place for older people, think its chargeable but still it gives some help.

YANBU to feel this way.

But unfortunately, it is what it is. NHS funding. Triage.

They're not going to stop attending an RTC because an elderly patient fell. It's a bit harsh but it is what it is.

Hope your grandfather is ok. My grandfather had a few falls too. It's not nice but I'm sure he'll be okay

It’s got to the stage where I wouldn’t expect an ambulance to turn up for anything at all tbh. They’ll probably be compelled to attend RTA’s because the road will be blocked.

Last year my 78yr old grandma was left lying on her freezing cold kitchen floor with a broken leg for almost 4hrs. She fell at midnight-ish, pressed her careline button who immediately called for an ambulance. About 2am she phoned me and asked me to come to hers and unlock the door so the paramedics could get in when they arrived, I went down straight away and they didn't arrive until well gone 3.30am!

Unfortunately there may have been a lot of calls who were more urgent.

This - sad but the reality of the nhs

Mum had a fall in Feb - 8 hrs waiting (she actually had a broken back!) for ambulance and then when she got to hospital another 5 hrs before seen for pain meds and then another 2 hrs before bed on waiting to go somewhere ward then booted out in am no treatment!!! We actually had an appauling time for around 3 months with cock up after cock up and on one subsequent ambulance call they were there in 30 to 45 min BUT when we got to hospital we waited 10 hrs IN the actual ambulance.... This was after a severe fit that could potentially have been a stroke. It is utterly broken

@ScottishG , I give my point of view from the view of your GF, Im disabled and I have a lot of what I call "floor hugs", me meets floor. I am under the falls team locally, known to orthopaedics, known to physio and occupational therapy teams, I have the careline similar to your GF and a team of carers . I am early 40s.

@Alonglongway "the person on the floor but basically ok isn’t going anywhere" - yeah thats exactly how it is around here, but once Im down and cant get up on my own or pulling off heavy safe structure like a rope ladder fixed to opposite side of the bed, if im "just" in paralysis, Carers will call the ambulance team and usually get me as comfy as possible on floor, pillow / duvet over me if needed. They have to stay with me until someone can replace them or I can get family or friends to come and be with me

Before I became disabled I was looking out my front door and saw a woman collapse on pavement in front of 3 houses away, she had originally fallen on the traffic island in the middle of the road but got up and carried on over to the pavement, I was first on scene. I knew just by the look and colour of her that she had done a lot of damage, people started pulling up and I had run out of the house with no phone so 999 was called, it was now starting to rain so while others stayed with her, I took someone back to my house and we got 4 duvets and 2 heavy blankets as knew this was going to take as long as it would take, grabbed a basin, someone else on the scene went to local health centre and one of the GPs guided in a gentle manoveur so she had 2 duvets underneath her and someone else appeared from the estate opposite and had a tent which was secured as best possible around her without the groundsheet as couldnt do another move, we were on the pavement for a total of 7 hours waiting for an ambulance and the lady was vomiting by this stage, the GP came back as he saw we were still there when he was heading home from work and gave her a couple of injections. She was crossing to her job as a carer, however she became in need of care herself urgently - she had broken her hip, tib and fib and her pelvis. The paramedics apologised perfusedly but even when they got her to hospital, they were waiting another 2 hours before the hospital had room for her, They had called other hospitals but all were at limits.

So I know from being the one on the ground as Im a frequent faller its a case of offering comfort to the person, keeping them distracted as possible, painkillers if appropriate for where the impact of body vs floor and keeping them warm but not neccessary as in the case of the lady on the side of the road, giving food or drink, because I knew she was heading for surgery and gave her a few tea spoons of crushed ice to stop her tongue sticking to her mouth with thirst.

@Bumdishcloths "if it's just a case of needing to get someone up safely", and "For care providers, policy usually dictates that care workers can't assist people from the floor as it's a danger to the individual and also to the worker. Care workers do stuff they're not meant to for health and safety reasons ALL the time to help their clients, but someone on the floor, you just don't fuck about with"

100% true and when carers and clients are both injured, it makes things a lot harder as client may now be dealing with pain and carers are often too but often have to turn into work despite it because they need income and because they care for their clients.

@LanaorAna2 It's a good idea to know what to do when someone is on the floor but not injured - put a blanket on them, give them a pillow and make sure they're in the recovery position if you can. They might be able to get up after the shock has faded. Sleeping on the floor is fine, people all over the world do it every night. - thats the jist of what I was saying above -- agree with you

@TheFairyCaravan Perhaps you could write to your MP OP to let them know that due to the cuts across the ambulance service your gf was left on the floor for 2 hours. I would.

@ RB68 my spine went into inflammation mode earlier this year and I ended up unable to move and couldnt press the lifeline around my neck, carers called an ambulnace for me, it was 5 hours before they arrived but in context Ive had similar attacks before but the pain of this one was off my scale. It was suspected that something else was wrong. They moved me very carefully into the ambulance and we took the longer route to the hospital which would be best to deal with it, cross country it is usually 26 miles so it was the 35 mile route as slowly and steady with no bumps or bad bends. It was 30 mins before they could hand me over and I was then put into the clinical decision unit temporary, after a couple of hours there I was moved to main a&e and assessed and then moved to majors and finally to a ward, during that time I saw the complete pressure all health care staff are under and violence towards them in a&e

We are all missing who has ruined the health service and while it needs money, it also needs development, training for staff, recruitment drives and lots more and we are being badly let down

Just picking up on a previous post, in a residential home we would pick an elderly person up off the floor and we do this for most of our patients. I have only called paramedics out twice to a fall, once to a bang to the head when the resident was on anti-coagulants and once when there was an obvious broken hip.

Hope grandad is ok xx

No its not right but ambulance services are so overstretched it ridiculous

@chimpychops, or is the past tense you are talking about.
I am not sure you are supposed to, unless trained

We are fine to do so as long as we have checked them over, any pain or injury, or head bangs especially when on anti-coagulants is a call to 999. We would be calling them out a lot if we had to for every fall. We have correct lifting equipment in place for generic use, although most of our residents can just get up without it.
The patients who are high falls risk have sensor alarms which trigger the call system, then we know they are on the move and can get to them to assist. The care staff would call me or the care team leader before moving them.

They’ll probably be compelled to attend RTA’s because the road will be blocked. - or because people involved in RTAs could have potentially life threatening injuries and therefore are a high priority, whereas an elderly man lying on the floor, with someone monitoring him, and no obvious injuries is a lower risk.

i read this article a couple of years ago
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/30/are-five-hour-waits-ambulances-sad-state-healthcare-system

very relevant

My neighbour had a bad fall and waited 6 hours for paramedics. Unfortunately, as in your case, they were absolutely stretched to the limit and she wasn't deemed a priority. She is 93.

Her family have put a lot of things in place now to enable her to stay at home but it's cost them a lot of money - electric chair, bed, cleaners, food delivery, meals on wheels etc but it's let her stay in her house, which is what she wants.

Is there anything that can help your grandad? Occupational Therapy could maybe assess and see if there is anything that could be put in to help him stay independent.

On the other side of it DD2 is a 2nd year student paramedic. The jobs she's been to have been a mix of falls, car crashes, strokes, births. She says she loves going to the falls as 9 times out of 10, they are fine, just need checked over and helped up. She always makes them something to eat and drink and contacts the Falls team to help the person who has fallen stay living independently.

Last night DD2 went to a house fire where someone had jumped from the 2nd floor. Not nice.

The problem is that the dispatcher is making the decisions based on the information they have been given and they have to make the decisions quickly. The paramedic had the benefit of hindsight.

In our case, they had been told that an 8 year old disabled child with underlying health conditions had been scalded by accident, the skin was coming off, it went around his whole thigh, we were unable to take him out of the shower as the skin was blistering and he was in considerable pain (she could certainly hear the screaming), he was shaking and we feared he was going into shock. We rang 3 times. An hour and a half felt like a very long time.