To be annoyed at the new company?

[Bubblegum89]

I work in a primary school doing catering. I’ve been there for 4 years, it works well for us because it means I don’t have to worry about childcare in the holidays. It’s not the most glamorous job but it paid okay and worked around my daughter.

In May this year, the school decided to change contracts. They didn’t want to use our company anymore and opted for another company to take over. We would keep our jobs but just Tupe over to this new company. Now, the nature of the job is you can’t leave until everything is done. My contracted hours aren’t great but the workload meant I could get a lot of overtime. Usually 2, maybe 3 a day. The new company assured us that this wouldn’t change when they took over.

So we went back to work last week and the new company had started with their new menus etc. The workload has now doubled meaning we are finishing later than usual (just me and my supervisor work there). However they have just told us that between the two of us, they will only allow 1 hour of overtime. My supervisor has said I can have it.

We are going to work to rule. After speaking with the manager of the company, it’s apparent that their overtime policy will not change meaning all the extra work I did last week was unpaid. I’m not about to work for free. We worked our arses off, not even having time to stop to eat or drink, and to know that I worked for about 6 hours for nothing has annoyed me. I’m not prepared to do my job for free just to make this new company look good.

Seeing as their overtime policy won’t change, if we work to rule and they realise that when I walk out at 1pm every day when there’s still a tonne of work to be done, I imagine they will say we need a third person in the kitchen which will again take overtime off me. Unless they allow me to be paid more overtime or increase my contracted hours (which it doesn’t sound like they will do) then financially, I’m worse off there. I get that they’re a different company with different rules and that’s fine but if I’m going to be worse off money-wise, it makes sense to leave and find something else. My supervisor is wanting to leave too for the same reason.

I already have another job at another school in the mornings. I’m happy staying there. And at the moment, I’m good going in to my main job to do strictly the hours they will pay me for and nothing else. Has anyone ever ended up leaving a job due to a change in hours/pay? Or has anyone done a work to rule that ended up actually working in their favour? I feel like maybe it’s already a lost cause but it’s worth a try anyway. I know that leaving a job voluntarily means I will be heavily sanctioned (we are entitled to a small amount of universal credit) and I’m worried that this is all kind of a lose-lose situation.

I’m wondering whether the company knows exactly what they are doing, but are waiting for you to jump ship so they can advertise your posts at a lower rate, thus increasing their profit?

Hi Bubble, really nice to see you. I hope you're well.

First, it's astonishing you're expected to do all that work. In my school (2-form entry) there are 3 kitchen staff and at least 3 midday meal supervisors; it's the supervisors jobs to sort out the hall after lunch, tables away and sweeping floors etc. Plus, teachers of younger year groups will stay to at least supervise their lunch service so can hurry up reluctant choosers. I have manned the salad trolley many a time! So at least the kitchen staff are dealing with serving/washing up and can go after that.

Secondly, it's no use speaking to most heads about these things, it's often a case of making a decision with governors/finance and then washing hands of it.

You shouldn't be working unpaid overtime, so maybe you and your supervisor could keep a record for a week of how long each task takes you, then present it to the company to show them that you can't possible fit it all in to the allocated hours.

I don't have any other suggestions, unfortunately. It sounds like a shit deal for you guys.

Do you work longer than 6 hours at a time in this role? Defo speak to acas.

Could you have another meeting with them before you do anything. One where you set out the tasks you had to do now and the tasks you had before. Put the time against each. Total the time at the bottom. Invite the head as well. Don't bill it as a complaint more as asking from help from them as to how to get it done. If you have 6 hours work to do in 3 hours ask them for suggestions as to how to be more efficient (eg if children are taking too long to decide, can they be given menus at registration or something - sorry I know that's probably not helpful I have no experience of schools) or what jobs you can leave or not do to the same standard. I wouldn't mention overtime at that point. See what they say. Ultimately you may be able to make efficiencies somewhere but not to the extent that they are asking so something has to give and it's up to them to decide what.

Knittedfairies I suspect that that’s exactly right. They’ve kind of been saddled with us rather than have brought in people they have interviewed and employed themselves.

Hi sooz! Hope everything is good with you :) I think that maybe just going to the governors would be our best bet but honestly, I don’t think that they would side with us. They’re saving so much more money with this new company. I suppose somewhere something has got to give and rather than lower quality food, it’s going to be our work hours. I just don’t see a scenario here where we come out on top. Work to rule, going to governors, getting an extra person in the kitchen... I’m going to be worse off either way.

Does anyone know how sanctions work with universal credit? I know that if I was to leave (or even if I was pushed) that will be classed as a sanction. Would that be the case even if I was to leave because of the employer policy not adhereing to the contract we were told we would have?

Information from the government website about TUPE

www.gov.uk/transfers-takeovers/transfers-of-employment-contracts

Remember that terms don't necessarily have to be written- if the old employer paid overtime for a period it may become part of your contract.

If you want to complain you need to raise a grievance. If that doesn't work early conciliatom through ACAS and possibly tribunal. Note there is a deadline of three months less one day to start the formal ACAS process. I think it is slightly less clear with pay because the problem is on going (rather than one incident at work for example).

The link below relates to England
www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/rights-at-work/pay/problems-getting-paid/

Some citizens advice or law centres have employememt solicitors who can advise, sometimes just free half hour, sometimes more. (I volunteer for cab and each one is individual so not all offer the same.)

I think working to rule is your best option. It will show those in charge that things can’t work in the allotted hours.

They then have two options-
Pay overtime
Employ another member of staff.

The overtime option is by far the cheaper option for them.

If you worked the unpaid hours, would your average hourly rate come in below NMW? If so, they're breaking the law, I believe.

What does it say about overtime in your original contract? If it stated that overtime was to be paid, then they are also breaking the law by not paying it.

Speak to ACAS.

Crikey what a nightmare. I don't know anything about TUPE but I would have thought overtime in most contracts is not a guaranteed right? In which case I imagine they are ok legally, just not very helpful practically.

Tell the company to bring two managers in and do a full shift with all that you're expected to do and show you that it's possible to be done by 1pm. It's training, you two are there to observe and be trained but not to make it into a four person kitchen that day!

Take your proper breaks. Arrive and start promptly, leave on time even if it's not finished. On your way out drop in to the head or whoever, stay calm, and explain that you both worked as hard and fast as was possible for the entire 6 hours and you are leaving as you aren't being paid to stay any longer. Prioritise food safety (obviously) and other HSE requirements but no time to put hall tables away? Looks like they are being left. No time to wash the dishes? They'll have to be done tomorrow and snack will have to be just toast while you play catch up. Even better if it's a day when the contractor company's bosses are in - simply pop your head round the door to their meeting, tell them at 12.50pm you're going home in ten minutes and they'll need to come and help you get done in time, and be sure to leave them to it at aforestated time.

Join a union, quickly, if you're not already in one. And yes get looking for alternative options, but don't leave unless it suits you to go when you are ready for your next job. You have rights, and they need to provide those.

I think if you were to leave you would have a decent case under constructive dismissal. I would suggest you get some legal advice.

HMRC minimum wage department would be very interested to hear from you if overall you are not being paid the minimum.

Thanks everyone. I’ll suggest speaking to ACAS to my supervisor tomorrow. From what I understand, overtime isn’t guaranteed. So there’s nothing saying “you’ll be paid X amount of overtime” but it’s just common sense that the job requires 2/3 hours of overtime to be done safely and efficiently. RE the NMW, I think that the unpaid hours means that would go down but I’d have to do the sums on it. It’s just all so frustrating. Maybe it’s just time to move on

Don't move on without speaking to ACAS yourself. Forget speaking to your supervisor and expecting them to do it.

You have a few options:

1. Quit. And be sanctioned under UC rules.
2. Work to rule/use other methods to see that the job isn't possible of being completed - and they will have to either pay OT or employ someone else. They're far more likely to pay OT. The worst that happens is have to performance manage you for failure to carry out your role, which could end in dismissal, in which case you're still better off than you would be under option 1 - especially since they will need to prove that the "ask" is reasonable or face a case for unfair dismissal
3. Work the unpaid hours and then launch a claim for payment falling under NMW (if it does)

4.

That's terrible! Employee rights are being shafted so much but no one seems to care.

You should also post this in the employment law section, BTW. You'll get some actual expert advice there rather than the rantings of plebs like me!!!

Haha thank you queenjuggler yeah I meant I will speak to ACAS but I’ll tell my surpervisor to consider doing the same. I think the second option is my best bet for now. I would rather give work to rule a go even if it is a dead end because at least I’ve tried to show the company that what they’re expecting us to do can’t be done in the time they expect it to be done in. It might amount to nothing in which case I might be able to get past a high sanction. I’ll pop a post in the employment law section as well :)

I have seen your response about the Head, then approach the Chair of Governors. I would be very unhappy if this was happening to people working in my school.

However, having read what you have written, I think I would be cutting my losses and moving on.

Just re the minimum wage thing, if you're being paid for 3 hours and working 6 you're being paid less than nmw unless your hourly rate for the 3 paid hours is £15.66 or more (6 hours at 7.83). So if you're not seeing £46.98 for 6 hours - however many of those are overtime - you're not getting minimum wage and HMRC can prosecute.

That makes sense DameFanny. I only do on average 4 hours at that job (I do a couple of hours at my other job). I just did a quick calculation and (if I’ve done it right!) if I was to work 4 hours but only get paid for 2.5 (1.5 contracted hours plus 1 hour overtime) that means I would have to be getting £12.53 an hour which I’m not, I’m getting £8.18. So I guess that’s something I need to make a point of as well

Yep. Why not contact HMRC and tell them - they'll probably find the same company pulling the same stunt all over. You've tried the local fix and they're not interested - tell your supervisor too?

I think you will find that the Head and school governors will not give a toss?, the reason that they contract out is not only to save money, but also not to have the responsibility of employing the catering staff, including their management , training, issues etc, you are not their employees. Tupe only covers contracted hours, but I think the fact you have done overtime consistently may count as 'custom and practice', therefore needing to be considered. It is sad, but I think that you won't win, and would probably be better looking for something else?, if not you will end up being more stressed and continually in conflict, if you take the grievance route or constructive dismissal there may be change or end up with you leaving but with a financial compensation, however try explaining that to a new employer, chances are any compensation would be minimal. If you leave anyone new would be told what to do within the allocated hours, tbh they would probably do it because they know no different , or the new company would employ 2 people to do your role but reduce the total amount of hours (including the over time) , still making a saving but many hands make light work? Contractors are such arses, their sales people saying anything to get the deal without really knowing what the job requires to be done,,,also see Group4 and Serco within the prison service!

I think I’m going to speak to CAB this week and maybe also HMRC. I think I know that this isn’t something I will win, at the end of the day they are a cheaper company and the school is only interested in saving money and not how the company conducts their employees. I’m worried about doing this the wrong way and ending up being sanctioned by universal credit AND be without wages. I know I might be okay if the reason for leaving is “good enough” but it’s making sure I’ve got proof of that.

I don’t want to be out of work and I do have another job so it’s not like I’m just dossing about all day but I do feel with this job, we might have to jump before being pushed. If that’s the case, it’s not likely I will get another job straight away and there is probably going to be a time where I am only doing one job and in that time, I’m going to be without any money at all (bar the small amount from my morning job) because UC sees me leaving my other job as me doing so voluntarily which is against their rules, so to speak

Hey bubblegum - how's it going?