AIBU or my DSIL

[Notmyusualnick]

Sorry for the long post - I named changed for this too but I'm a long-time poster on MN.

I have two nieces, 13 and 12 and I am struggling to understand whether it's me being too strict or if it's my DSIL being too relaxed with her parenting.
I don't see them too often as we live elsewhere but I visit my family few times a year and while it's lovely to see my family, I normally end up tired and needing a few days of peace and quiet afterwards.
They are reasonably well off and my Mum is still working and earning pretty good money (she divorced my not so DF after we were all grown up) which she spends on her DGCs, having had paid off her house.
My DM used to be strict with us but her DGCs could be jumping on her head and she'd let them get away with that.
She doesn't see my DD too often so every time we are here she keeps getting presents and gets taken fun places but it's once or twice in a year and I am always with her so she still keeps her normal routine. Unlike her cousins who grew up between my DSIL and DB's house and my DM's house, getting chauffeured by her to their afterschool activities and trainings as my DSIL considers it normal to just call my DM and ask her to pick her kids up from school and bring them wherever they need or to her house for a sleepover.
They've been allowed mobile phones and social media for some time now. Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat and other stuff with barely any limits put on them.
Whatever they wish for, they get. My older niece was throwing tantrums because she wanted a horse - she got a horse. Took her two years to build up enough responsibility to actually take care of him, fortunately the trainer and the owner of the stables is a no-nonsense man who doesn't take any shit and he told her she either starts taking care of her horse and riding him regularly or she needs to find herself another stable for him.
None of them ever says please and thank you and the way they talk to my Mum is so disrespectful I sometimes find it very difficult to be around them. Telling her to shut up and go away is normal. She would tell them off but never executes the threat so they just continue as they are.
Almost everything has to be a drama, lots of shouting, threats, tears, half-arsed apologies where the kids speak to their mother and my Mum like they are equals instead of being children.
Funny enough, my DSIL would prefer ordering anyone else, including my DB and myself and talks to us like we are incapable of proper parenting - my way of parenting gets regularly criticised because I am apparently being too strict for expecting proper manners such as saying please when DD wants something from anyone and thank you when she gets it, having no mobile phone and no social media presence at the very ripe age of 7.5 and not being allowed to fool around beyond the point of exhaustion (which I know normally ends with her getting a headache and throwing up the next day) and expecting her to do what I asked her to. Mind you, DD is no blind follower of rules and can be a proper smartarse and very assertive and we certainly don't have conversations based on "I order and you execute." basis but both me and DH expect her to stick to the rules and be respectful to others.
The obvious question would be of course, where's my DB's role in this. He is the typical high-earning absent father, nice and benevolent with his daughters but unable to cope with their tantrums, gladly off-shoring their upbringing to his part-time working wife and their Grandmother.
Behind all of the drama, shouting, little respect to value of things (one of my nieces was told to get off her mobile phone while walking, ignored it, promptly fell and broke her mobile phone, major drama, got a new mobile phone for her birthday two weeks later with a "Nothing happened to you, that's the most important thing, sweetheart.") they are still girls with kind hearts and I can't help but feel sorry for them.
DSIL believes this kind of upbringing will make them ready for life where they will be able to simply force their way through any obstacles by purely believing they are entitled to whatever they want.
I am afraid they will either find themselves in a situation where they will have no DM or DGM to sort out their mess or they will become over entitled brats with a major need for instant satisfaction of their wants and needs and I like neither.
I am staying out of this because I don't want to get into arguments while on my holidays and I also feel like it's not my place to criticise anyone's parenting but is it me being wrong for having the old-fashioned ideas that rules, while they should be done and not overdone are good for children or is it my DSIL who believes lots of shouting and threats while mostly giving up is normal?
I wouldn't bother with this normally but I find myself exhausted after each time spent in the middle of this - I cannot NOT visit as it would break my DM's and DD's heart as they love each other and she loves her cousins too and they love her back.

I can imagine it is frustrating but I think you need to step aside because your SIL is in charge of her own kids.

You can talk about parenting in general and pass on any things that are helpful but only if SIL is willing to listen.

I think your mum needs to choose for herself what behaviour she is willing to put up with. you could pick the girls up on their manners around your mum or your own child if you wishes. Your SIL may have different ideas but in a way I think sometimes when we show others we respect a person, e.g. 'Please don't tell my mum to shut up dn."

That may help.

But to be honest don't expect your mum to be grateful, she may be putting up with this behavior because she fears not seeing them if she puts her food down.

In terms of what your DB and SIL choose to buy their children, that's their call.

"I wouldn't bother with this normally but I find myself exhausted after each time spent in the middle of this ..."

In your shoes, I would talk to your mum, explain that the behaviour makes you upset. Ask if she wants you to do anything and then accept if she says not to do anything.

If your nieces are rude to your dd, or you, then you just need to correct them. You don't need to be on tender hooks when you visit. Allow your SIL to wait on you if that is what happens, or pitch in and help if needed. Keep visits short and sweet and don't feel you need to criticize your SIL or her kids.

I think Old-fashioned values are great. But I have two kids with some level of extra needs and my own sis has criticized my parenting a bit from when my dd was little and was not diagnosed with ASD. She now admits that she couldn't cope with my DD and thinks I do a good job! And I am willing to take advice from my own sis when she has a point.

Good luck in the situation.

@Italiangreyhound - believe me, I'm not dishing out any advice, I'm all for live and let live and don't meddle in anyone else's parenting. It would only result in an argument. I only put me foot down when DSIL started organising every single minute of our holidays there few years ago and simply taking my DD for a sleepover which I had no idea about before DD disappeared in my DSIL's car etc.
None of the nieces has special needs or issues, no learning difficulties (rather the other way round) even though they "hate school" and "all teachers are swines and give them homework".
I would be also willing to take any advice if it were offered as an advice and not as "this is my way and it's the only way so shut up and do as I say".
I love my family but those visits get really exhausting by the end of them. I'd much prefer they came over to visit us because it's not all of them at once.
My DM doesn't put her foot down because she is someone who wants to do everything for everybody even though it causes her health problems. Trying to persuade her to look after herself first is like trying to persuade a donkey to dance foxtrot.
Thank you for your post though. I think I needed to rant as much as I needed to ask for advice as I am sometimes questioning my parenting and asking myself whether our insistence on certain basic rules and respect towards others doesn't set out DD for a failure in future life as today it's all about take take take.

YANBU, it sounds like they are behaving like entitled, spoiled brats! My kids would be in so much trouble if they dared tell my Mum to shut up! I do think however, that they are clearly modelling behaviour which is normal for them. Clearly their Mother and Father don’t model respect in conversation with them and each other.

I would tell my Mother that there is no way you can allow your daughter to continue to witness this kind of behaviour, not only is it an awful influence on your daughter, it must be upsetting for your daughter to have to listen to their abuse of her Grandmother. Your Mother is more than capable of pulling the girls up on their awful behaviour whilst at her house and if she wants to see your daughter, she will need to start pulling them up for their behaviour. She has a responsibility to do so if she is frequently caring for them!

The obvious question would be of course, where's my DB's role in this. He is the typical high-earning absent father, nice and benevolent with his daughters but unable to cope with their tantrums, gladly off-shoring their upbringing to his part-time working wife and their Grandmother.
Your brother sounds awful.

@CaledonianQueen I do believe that Grandparents are there for a bit of a spoiling and I don't think it does DD any harm when she gets chocolatey cereals for breakfast for few days in a year when she eats proper breakfast otherwise or get ice-cream every day when over there. She's banned from making puppy eyes at everything she sees though as it automatically triggers buying behaviour in her loving Granny (she sticks to it most of the time).
I certainly wouldn't let my DM behave like this if she were providing regular care for my DD. In that case DM has to behave like a parent, not as a generous Gran.

It can be frustrating, for sure.
The place where you need to speak up is when they criticize you.
Confront them and tell them you also have strong opinions on their child raising methods but unlike them you have kept them to yourself.
Offer them the choice of putting an end to carping at you or keep on carping and get both barrels of what you think about their shortcomings as parents and role models.

Can you get them to visit you/shorter visits?

They do sound exhausting but there is a big difference between 12 and 13 year old girls and your 7.5 DD. The legal age for Facebook is 13 so I don't see the problem with that. My 11 year olds are not allowed on Facebook yet but buy 13 I imagine they will be. I would say most children of that age have phones. You mention the girl dropped and broke her phone and the for one for her daughter two weeks later for her birthday. I don't see a problem with this either. She didn't get another phone that afternoon did she - they replaced the phone via her birthday present.

Other things you should just let ride, the gifts and activities for your DD. As you see them once or twice a year your DSIL wants to arrange some treats - that's normal.

Considering you don't see them very often but you seen to know a lot about their life, including the care of a horse stabled elsewhere. You need to relax a bit more, it sounds as if every single thing is grating on your nerves. Are you building it up in your head to be worse than it actually is? If the girls are rude to you you are entitled to say, don't speak to me like that. Pull them up on what they are saying to you and your DD. But that is about it - you cannot say any thing else without straying into dangerous territory. Perhaps have a word with your mum about the way the girls answer her back, if its a problem encourage your mum to speak to your pull them up or tell your mother to mention their behaviour to your brother. I feel your brother gets off very lightly in your email. Your SIL is effectively raising TWO hormonally charged young pre-teens without much input from your brother.

Don't worry about how the girls will fair in the future. It is not your concern. You and your SIL have very different parenting skills, but you say they girls are kind and have a good heart. The inner core is good, the manners and charm and the drama need buffing by the sounds of it. Lots of deep breaths. Time out on your own or with your DM when it gets too much and remember it's only a few times a year.

I think you’ve got two choices:

Suck it up, and accept the risks to your own child’s future when she gets used to seeing/participating in this brattish behaviour. Get used to seeing your DM’s health worsen as she deals with more of this.

Or

Change the way you organise contact with your DM, DB & inlaws/nieces. Draw a line under these ‘baby years’ and say from from your DD is 8, there will be a change.

-Organise your DM to visit you instead, so you can give her a break at the very least. Replace at least one visit with this.
-When you go to where they live, stay in nearby accommodation, so you can at least run your own routine more hours of the day.
-Organise more excursions and less ‘housebound’ activities, when you’re all together
-Find things for just your DD & DGM to do, away from the others. Gives them special time, and you a chance to regroup.

You need to steer this barge under more of your own influence. You can’t do that at somebody else’s house. Nothing you say, do or explain will change their parenting norms.

Why are the DN spending so much time with you and DM when you visit? Do you arrange this round your DB contact time? It sounds very intense and I can't figure out why?

If you don't want DD going for a sleepover, then say so! You're her mother and you're in charge. Get her back.

"" who grew up between my DSIL and DB's house and my DM's house, getting chauffeured by her to their afterschool activities and trainings as my DSIL considers it normal to just call my DM and ask her to pick her kids up from school and bring them wherever they need or to her house for a sleepover. ""

That was the norm for me and my peer group, when I was growing up in the 70's. I have the same relationship with my Grandchildren and a couple of friends of my DD's, who don't have Family in the UK.
It is a shame that extended Families died out.

I had an open house when my children were younger. I took a few in when they were teens and going through the typical rough teen patch, with their Mum. You do sound as though you've got no understanding that they are starting to deal with young Adults. The best thing to do is to give them a level of autonomy and let them mess up,in a safe way.

The rest might be how they are handling the pre-teen/teens.

The phone being replaced on the Birthday, I don't get your point tbh. Things get broken, mistakes get made, that's how we learn. It wasn't just replaced, it replaced another present.

So the then 11 year old? didn't look after their Pet until they were made to, again it's within the realms of usual.

Teen Girls can be all shouting and drama. Two of mine were.They were completely different people at 17.

Once again - I am not here to get parenting advice for them. I am totally staying out of that. I don't agree with children growing up with all of their wants constantly satisfied but I started questioning myself whether I am the right one to be more insistent on children sticking to the rules and accepting the authority of parents. DD certainly isn't an obedient angel and can be pretty assertive when needed and show what she thinks of some of my opinions - she's a world champion in eyes rolling.

But when I see the girls behaving disrespectfully to my Mum, I have no problems setting them straight. That's something I insist on because I can't bear seeing my DM being treated such. I don't know why she allows it because she's pretty much well able to stand up for herself otherwise and if they decide to see her less often, she could certainly do with a break. For her it's I believe simply a matter of this being her Grandkids and she spent her all strictness on us. Her Mum and my beloved Great-grandma was the same.
DD herself doesn't want to go for a sleepover because she gets nervous when they start screaming at each other. She had two sleepovers at their house last year but refuses to go again because they were arguing and shouting at each other.
As for: How do I know? Despite all our problems we talk. We are a very close knit family so we talk, call each other etc. We are like a bit like the cliche Italian family (including the tempers rising very quickly and loudness), also with my exception they all live in one town and despite all the differences we love each other so when visiting, we all end up together.

And as for the fact that they are teenagers - this has been going on for years, they were DD's age when they had their mobile phones, 9 and 10 when they got the social media access etc. so by no means a new story.
I don't agree with a 12 year old having her own instant chat account anyway.

""I don't agree with a 12 year old having her own instant chat account anyway""

And that's fine, make sure that your child doesn't. Anyone else's isn't any of your concern.

""I can't bear seeing my DM being treated such. I don't know why she allows it because she's pretty much well able to stand up for herself otherwise and if they decide to see her less often, she could certainly do with a break.""

Your Mum is her own person. I've had to tell my eldest to keep her nose out when it comes to how often I was prepared to have me Grandchildren and what I do and don't do for other people.

If she is asking for help, that's different.

@Birdsgottafly - I will repeat myself till pigs fly with you.
I DON'T WANT TO DISH ANY ADVICE. I REPEATED ON THIS THREAD SEVERAL TIMES THAT I AM NOT GOING TO MY DSIL AND CRITICISING HER WAY OF BRINGING UP CHILDREN.
I AM NOT GOING TO MY DM AND TELL HER HOW TO TREAT HER GRANDCHILDREN.

If I need to repeat myself, let me know. I will paint you a cartoon - that may help you understand. Hopefully.

What do you want from this thread op??

I think she wants validation that she's doing the right thing by her DD and that her DSIL's method isn't the norm!

OP, your DSIL is right in a way, the pushy, demanding people will frequently get their own way and win out in certain aspects of life. But they will never have a career that demands focus and dedication to get here, eg medicine, engineering etc, because its too much like hard work. They won't have great friends, but they will have 'followers'. They will be dreadful as partners. So they might have some of the appearances of success, but i doubt they'd have success in a way that you or I would value.

You definitely are taking the right approach with your DD, and this early but limited exposure to people like her cousins will help her stand up to this personality type later in life.

You sound like my judgemental SIL. I equally don't really understand why you are posting.

Your brother is raising entitled brats which, despite what their mother claims, will not prepare them for life in the real world. I've raised 2 daughters and we encountered 'those girls' regularly over the years: addicted to drama, hyper emotional, ignorant, self-obsessed and frankly boring. They are egocentric yet wholly dependant on others as they have poor coping strategies and little self control. It's no surprise that all of this carries over into adult life with largely negative effects on friendships, relationships and employment. I travelled through China last year and it was interesting to learn about the One Child policy and how they now have a problem with all the spoilt brats that grew up as a consequence. Divorce is rife in that generation as both partners refuse to compromise and expect special treatment. In your shoes I would just grin and bear it. Nobody will listen to you if you pass comment. Good luck to your DB and SOL "they that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind".

I've raised 2 daughters and we encountered 'those girls' regularly over the years: addicted to drama, hyper emotional, ignorant, self-obsessed and frankly boring

Not to mention bullying

I've also encountered many of 'this type'

You rounded it up well

Just lovely words to. describe 12 and 13 year olds.....

Just lovely words to. describe 12 and 13 year olds.....

When you have daughters of this age and they come home crying because they've been affected by these types of children, you tend to lose a bit of sympathy.

Lessons interrupted, friendships ruined, messages on SM,
Mean girls - always seem to be the loud entitled types.

I have also raised girls this age and putting them into saints or sinners groups is never helpful.

Depends how you look at it? Mine avoid these types for their drama. I'm happy with that.