CF cleaner?

[Changeitquik]

Namechanged to delink from prior posts.

Recently our long-term (self-employed) cleaner has started asking for cash in hand rather than the usual bank transfer, and has asked for a raise and to be paid per hour rather than a weekly fee. Cash in hand is a pain as we have to remember to leave it.

The agreement has always been been 4 hours split unevenly over 2 days, so 1.5 hours one day early in the week and 2.5 hrs later in the week. We’ve never ‘enforced’ the hours and used to pay a flat rate for the service, which, funnily enough works out the same as the ‘raise’ we were asked for, for the hours, which we pointed out at the time. The new expectation is we leave the cash out when they come.

We recently had a minor burglary so got some cctv cameras and now get motion alerts with video. We have been away and earlier this week saw that the cleaner was in the house for just 45 mins. The job got done but the house was pretty clean already. This isn’t the first time it’s happened, but normally someone’s there and it’s not quite as significant. If we aren’t there it’s markedly shorter.

We don’t want to be petty or stingy, but as the job is still adequately being done, DH suggests we pay as they’ve asked, an hourly cash sum (so pro-rata of the hour). But that we only pay what they worked. I don’t know how we can provide that except in arrears without the awkward conversation about them triggering the cameras as I know they expect the full sum .

I don’t want to cause drama but it feels like we’re being taken advantage of. It makes me sad as theyve been with us for years and we are friendly. Maybe they’re struggling to get by and are trying to cut corners with us as they think we may be understanding, to maybe take on another job? I don’t know. Is this CF-ery, or are we being too soft??? Or both??

Sounds good @Changeitquik

We no longer have a cleaner, as we’re both retired.

We paid notionally per hour, but really, if I came home to a clean house, I didn’t really care how long it took her.

Our last cleaner was amazing. She did our whole house in 4 hours, while being paid for 6 (this I knew because I often worked from home).

She was a big, blond Valkyrie of a woman. She sprinted round my house like a whirlwind. But every piece of furniture was polished, every floor was hoovered or washed. The kitchen was thoroughly cleaned, the dishwasher was emptied and refilled. The cooker was cleaned. The bathrooms were sparkling.

She also had a little book where she kept her list of the not-every-week jobs, like insides of windows and cupboards. So when she had finished the general clean, she would clean the windows in one room, plus a cupboard or 2. All in 4 hours. In a 5 bedroom house.

One day I found her catching her breath and standing on the stairs to get her breath back. I asked her why. She said she worked so quickly to cut down the cost of childcare.

Which showed me the lengths some folk have to go to pay the rent and put food on the table.

I really miss her. I wish she would come back to our village. She was a little ray of sunshine.

Just a quick question OP. do you get paid holiday time? I would be mighty pissed off if my employer suddenly decided to stop paying me for holidays. I know the way you pay her has changed but stopping holiday pay is mean IMO.

Every cleaner I've ever had has started reducing the time they spend on the job the longer they've been employed - even those we've had friendly relationships with.

My favourite (with whom we're still friends) was paid for 3 hours and left after an hour and a half every time (I came home early regularly and she'd gone) and the quality of the job she did was deteriorating over time. Luckily she quit before I had to have the conversation!

I'd accept a certain amount of leeway on their time management as long as the jobs still being done to a high standard, personally.

Actually no I don’t, as I’m self employed.

They never asked for holiday pay, we just gave it to them as a token of appreciation. In practice, we just didn’t cancel the standing order. They weren't necessarily comfortable with it and tried to return it several times in the past or do extra jobs for the perceived ‘overpayment’. By now changing and asking us to pay per hour and in cash it seems they are asking us to stop doing this. I don’t think it’s mean?

@quizzlybear that feels familiar. It’s almost as if because she feels comfortable with us she is more comfortable approaching our job with a degree of flexibility. I know she works for a friend and doesn’t reduce the time. She only does them once every week though, before coming to ours.

Your cleaner is mixing up two different ads of working.

You can pay someone an agreed amount to do a job and it’s up to them to get the job done. E.g. you pay a plumber a set a,punt to install a boiler and it’s his risk how long it will take him to do it, if he finishes quickly he can go.

Or you pay someone an hourly rate to do whatever is possible within that time. E.g. you may a gardener for three hours, when the three hours are up he leaves whether your garden is finished or not.

Your cleaner wants an hourly rate AND to leave early which you s taking the piss.

Ways not ads!

Changing to an hourly rate and expecting those hours to be worked is fine. But I think you should not pay cash in hand or ask them why they want this? I can't see any reason other than to avoid tax. If you agree to this then I think they should reduce the hourly rate, you're taking a risk and they're getting all the benefit

What is the tax risk we are taking? They provide us a service, they are not our employee nor do we provide them with pension etc, as you would a nanny for instance. Enlighten me!!

I'm not sure if the taxman sees a cleaner as "not your employee". Someone I worked for as their holiday cover secretary for many years (as required) paid their cleaner cash-in-hand but, when the Nat Ins authorities (then separate from HMRC) did a random thorough check of their business (they came in person and went through every single thing, including petty cash receipts - it took days), the cleaner issue was pulled up and apparently they are regarded as an employee and the cleaner in question had not been declaring the payments - the person I worked for found himself liable for lots of backdated nat ins contributions - it came to a great deal of money (and this was about 20 years ago). Unless your cleaner is officially self-employed, this could happen to you. Apart from that, there is the moral issue which bothers me - I don't want to enable people to avoid paying their taxes.

Does she know about the camera?

I think it is not fair (Or possibly legal) to put up a camera without saying anything. I wouldn't say anything. Tell her you have put up a camera due to the burglary and I bet she won't leave early again. If she works well and you trust her, this isn't worth falling out over.

The camera is outside the house, by our garage, so we are seeing her arrive and seeing her leave. Not inside the house. Most of our neighbours also have cctv. I don’t think that’s illegal?

I’m more than happy to point out the cameras but even if we didn’t have them, we can still view the activity log on the alarm system and work it out. She’s known about that forever. To be fair, this last time she didn’t turn it back on when leaving.

I pay my cleaner cash in hand and always assumed that, because the amount I pay her is very small over a week's work, tax issues are not my problem. But I have been told on MN that isn't the case and I should be careful. If I were paying the higher rates that you are, I would definitely want to pay by cheque or transfer. £15+ ph AND cash in hand is definitely CF territory imo

Perhaps I’ll ask if she’ll take a cheque. It’s a pain getting the cash anyway.

I have run a cleaning company for 13 years in the South East.
Never would I even suggest that I preferred payment in cash.
It is the customers preferred way of paying that I accept. Cash, cheque or bank transfer. Just because they have been with you for years doesn't mean they can decide the terms and conditions.
If you are suspecting that they are finishing early then it sounds as if the rot has set in and it could be time for a change for both of you.
Have you asked your boss if he/she can pay you cash in hand?