How do you deal with the ‘isms’ in real life?

[NiamhNaomh]

FIL is one of the ‘ism’ types the lot rascist, homophobic, sexist and an abusuve arse to add to his many charms. He is also a very difficult, generally unpleasant and controlling man who has been physically abusive in the past, who MIL has to live with. (There is an incredibly long backstory but in short we have asked her to leave but she is learnt helpless where he is concerned)

Yesterday he called over and had his usual sexist story to tell. DH joined in with him to get the sexist story over as fast as he could while the rest of us (all female) stonewalled him while he told the story. I asked DH about it later on, how would he feel if he was (insert person of colour, gay man etc) listening to the way his Dad goes on but for me worse still was his (DH) children (daughters) hearing him join in with his father’s “stories” and the effect that would have.

DH made the point that MIL and SIL have to be at home with FIL after everyone stonewalls him and FIL gets upset when people do this to him. It happens constantly because FIL is such an arse and he goes into pretty controlling behaviour and sulking for hours or days after it.

So DHs new strategy is to minimise the stonewalling and try to minimise FIL’s anger issues by giving him at least one person in the rooms attention. DH’s idea was that for 5 minutes of unpleasantness from FIL for everyone in the room with FIL getting the hearing he believes he deserves everyone around gets spared hours and hours of nastiness.

AIBU to still not be happy even though I can see where DH is coming from. I feel FIL is having the effect of making DH feel he needs to condone his awful behaviour all so a controlling abusive asshole doesn’t have to stop being as ghastly as he actually is.

In answering this please do not draw from your own experiences of sane FILs, mine definitely is a nasty piece of work and MIL will not leave him that has all been suggested many, many times.

FIL is unlikely to change his ways. What your DH is doing makes sense. He isn't agreeing with it just managing the situation.
My gran is nasty and we do a mixture of calling her out of stuff and ignoring depending on what is likely to be most effective.

I had this with ex FIL and it’s so hard, you really have my sympathy.

Firstly please try not to argue about it with your husband. He’s trying to protect his mum.

I used to cope with it by excusing myself, I’d find some dishes to clear or pretend my phone was ringing and leave the room. Your other option is to refuse to spend time with him.

The one exception to this is if there is actually a poc, queer etc person present, then I would have to say something.

People will disagree with me but they haven’t been in your/my shoes.

Do you need to be around him or can you avoid these situations altogether?

Just reread the part about your daughters over hearing it. You can both (you and dh) use it as a good way to talk to them about how sometimes people can be abusive, why mil might not want to leave, how they can stand up to fil if they want to, or leave the room, or not attend events with him.

Your DH is enabling it. He should lead from the front and tell FIL it is not acceptable in your home and in front of DD's.
If FIL sulks then tough shit. MIL and SIL should stonewall it to, perhaps then he would reflect on his behaviour.
Your family would be better off without this kind of conversation in their lives. It has to be zero tolerance.
Children are influenced by adult behaviour and conversation. Personally I wouldn't allow it.

How old are your daughters?

Because if they are older than tiny babies, or younger than full adults then they absolutely must not see their main male role model-their father- behaving like this. Or their main female role model -their mother- condoning it.

He’s managing the lesser of two evils. If he doesn’t manage it, his DM will have hell to pay at home.

I think most people would rather hear a sexist / racist or homophobic story quickly than set up my DM for a beating later.

Dreadful situation all round

I see what your husband is doing and can't condemn him for it.

I do give attention as far as I can manage to people who I can't stand. It's not " enabling" to do so but part of treating them with some respect because that's who I want to be. It can also include calmly stating why I don't agree depending on where they are at right then in the anger cycle! Paying genuine attention can help feelings of rejection which can imo feed into nastiness.

Letting the kids be part of it is another matter and I do very actively try to limit what my kids are around: the younger they were the more I did this. The age of the kids would affect it. I'd be trying to see MIL on her own with any age kids though. Or just letting DH go on his own on most occasions.

Is he bothered about seeing his grandkids? If he is A wee mention that they'll stop visiting might have an effect. I doubt it though from what you've already written.

There's no one right solution imo. Because you can't solve him, only manage it for your family.

I don’t buy the whole ‘he’s protecting his mum’ line. What he’s actually doing is absolving his dad from responsibility. It’s his dad’s fault for taking his anger at your reaction out on his wife - your husband is making it your fault for reacting in the first place. If there was no bad behaviour to react to, it wouldn’t be an issue.

In your shoes I’d be telling your husband that a grown man should be able to turn around to his own father and say ‘You might be able to bully mum, but you can’t bully me. This stops now.’

Thanks for the replies, lots of differing views there, this is definitely my own gut instinct

Because if they are older than tiny babies, or younger than full adults then they absolutely must not see their main male role model-their father- behaving like this. Or their main female role model -their mother- condoning it.

But then there is this and not wanting to drop feed but this are now elderly people and my MIL has a severely declining health condition which complicates everything.

I think most people would rather hear a sexist / racist or homophobic story quickly than set up my DM for a beating later

For years we have backed away as much as possible but due to MILs infirmity which will only be getting worse we have been dragged right back into the heart of it.

“You might be able to bully mum, but you can’t bully me. This stops now.”

DH is not remotely afraid of his Dad any more and he stood between his Dad abd his mother from the age of 12 to physically challenge. But then comes the mental abuse from his Dad once DH is out of the way.

Has your DH talked to his daughters about his strategy, or how they want to react when their grandfather is being abusive in front of them?

I don’t buy the whole ‘he’s protecting his mum’ line. What he’s actually doing is absolving his dad from responsibility. It’s his dad’s fault for taking his anger at your reaction out on his wife - your husband is making it your fault for reacting in the first place. If there was no bad behaviour to react to, it wouldn’t be an issue.

From seeing all of this first hand I don’t think the above applies, there is a lot of background information missing from the OP as I guess is always the case in such a complex, lifelong dynamic. DH know all about his Dads shortcomings and is definitely in the business of managing them and certainly has nothing negative to say about my frustrations. He is well aware where the fault lies to be fair to him.

Has your DH talked to his daughters about his strategy, or how they want to react when their grandfather is being abusive in front of them?

No not yet. I was not aware it was DHs new strategy until very recently, he had engaged in the stonewalling with us until recently. For our children as it stands we are dealing with the “ism” stories being told around them. They are completely oblivious to the background abuse dynamics. So yes if he is about, they are guaranteed to hear some unpleasant stories, they will see a fair bit of ignoring of grandad (my SILs and DMIL all ignore him too) when he goes off on his story telling and they now they see their Dad engaging with grandad in these stories. This was this issue that prompted me to get other people views.

As an aside the children actually bring out the best in him because he adores them but definitely not enough to make him change, he will not change. Threats of him not seeing them would just spur on his rage abd mistreatment of MIL.

Hopefully, the children are old enough to understand that he is being very ignorant. I think honesty is the best way with children. They are wiser than you think. If they know that their dad is just playing along, they will understand that he is doing it because grandad is a rather silly man with silly views and grandad will behave like a toddler and tantrum with Grandma if he is taken to task.
Can you give an example if the kind of nonsense he spouts forth? For example, Could he be asked why he thinks those things and ask him if he can show you the evidence? Pushing someone to justify their thoughts is more powerful than arguing against. They often dig themselves into their own hole.

Hopefully, the children are old enough to understand that he is being very ignorant

I really hope they realise we don’t condone the behaviour.

The stuff he says is very difficult to explain. All that “I have friends who are homosexuals followed by some unfounded homophobic assumption” or all about “who women including 70 odd MIL fancy” which is just creepy or “how women are much better at ....shove in all the stereotypes for women and men are just better at” but equally this could be “a black person is just no use at.... fill the gap with some random leap he has just made”.

They are constant insidious stuff. He sounds all very polite and interesting until you hear the actual words.

As for fact checking. He will always have the source for his supposed facts. He invented fake news, before Donald Trump there was my FIL. It is so wearing.

What happens when you don't stonewall him and say, "yes I suppose people did think that in the 50s, it's a good thing that things have moved on" or " I know xyz and they're not like that" or " none of my female friends are like that" " it must be tricky having those views nowadays" Beat him at his own game, "I've read many articles which disprove that"
I've learnt a lot of counter arguments for isms from Mumsnet.
I have a fil who makes sexist comments and I'm working on being quicker to respond and not internally seethe. Eg. Back seat driving whilst I am driving but not when his son is driving. I said, "I didn't realise you were a nervous passenger" inferring the weakness is his issue and not mine iykwim.

Sorry to bang on about this, but I think this is unacceptable behaviour in front of kids. Deflecting this by explaining it is a strategy to help out Grandma is teaching the children what exactly?
Does this man have 1-2-1 times with his GK's? Kids have a habit of asking questions of adults and tend to believe their answers. What is he telling them if they ask awkward questions? Bearing in mind his bigoted POV.

Sorry to bang on about this, but I think this is unacceptable behaviour in front of kids.

You are definitely no banging on by any manner or means, I completely agree with you. I doubt he has ever had 1-2-1 with any of them because all of this happens at family events.

It is a lifelong issue for DH and DSILs and every single one of them have tried their hand at

1. challenging
2. trying to get him to change But there is a point that becomes tiresome with him. When I say this stuff is constant I mean constant. Think of a toddler who isn’t getting enough attention so they make do with negative attention instead and you've more of less got a handle on the issue. And love bombing didn’t work either 🤣.

But with MIL in health decline we now see more not less of them so the issue is getting bigger for me, actually everyone according to DH.

Gotta if you do as he suggests by engaging him on how things have changed, the whole thing last longer as he just keeps on banging on and on defending his perspective.