To worry about NHS paternity leave in advance?

[IAmAllAstonishment]

I would love some advice from anyone familiar with NHS paternity policy. I’ve looked online but nothing about this.

DP and I are planning to TTC next summer. I I want to give my DP 3 months via shared parental leave as us being together early days is very important to us.

DP is a surgeon and will be StR when we have DC (fingers crossed!) We know he will get little financial compensation (no issue we have ample savings) but he mentioned the other day that he believe the NHS are able to deny requests for shared parental leave if they are too understaffed/ can’t accommodate. (Think it just applies to doctors though)

This worries me as his trust is CONSTANTLY understaffed and overstretched. If it were any other company I’d say no way, they have to comply with shared parental leave but I’m concerned that with the NHS it may be true.

I guess they only have X amount of doctors in each specialty and if women are out on maternity leave/ people are sick/ they’re understaffed anyway ...etc then maybe they can reject male shared paternity leave.

Does anyone know anything about this?

I know it’s a bit early to be planning this but I’d like to prepare myself and have all the information.

Not sure mrs2468 to be honest as Im an NHS lifer! It would be lovely if you could both be off at the same time! So i hopenim wrong but thats my understanding of it from my last two trusts anyway!

It's not common to both be allowed off at the same time (beyond the 2 weeks statutory). DH and I are both now in private sector jobs with good parental leave policies but I still have to finish mine before his can start.

DP being off for the first few months is as much for my emotional support as helping with new baby.

A few friends who have had babies recently said they felt housebound early days as too overwhelmed by new baby/ healing body/ heavy pushchairs and luggage to even run to the supermarket.

Plus DP’s intense shifts/ hours currently run our house. Long days/ on call nights...etc. I can’t imagine trying to keep a tiny baby quiet in the middle of the day so he can actually sleep for the few hours he gets to be at home whilst on long shifts!

I read online that one parent can be on maternity leave and get their maternity pay whilst the other takes shared paternity leave. That’s gov website opinion but not sure about NHS.

Might just be mine and DH work that allow to be off the same time then which is great

I would have him take 2 weeks paternity and then some holiday if needed/possible and only do parental leave when you return to work (or with a small cross over).

You’ll feel SO much more comfortable returning to work knowing the babies dad is looking after him, and the early weeks aren’t the hardest anyway usually unless you’re in a bad state post birth.

Plus DP’s intense shifts/ hours currently run our house. Long days/ on call nights...etc. I can’t imagine trying to keep a tiny baby quiet in the middle of the day so he can actually sleep for the few hours he gets to be at home whilst on long shifts!

Yeah you can’t keep a baby quiet really... but some aren’t massive screamers. My first was a lovely quiet baby who only really briefly cried when he needed something! The second, not so much.

he will need good earplugs regardless.

Thank you all for your info, it’s great to know, I appreciate it! Xx

OP, you're getting some duff advice here from well-meaning people who don't know or fully understand the government policy on Shared Parental Leave.

You have to take a minimum of 2 weeks mat leave (after the baby is born). Your husband can take his 2 weeks stat paternity leave at the same time (ie. immediately after the baby is born). For your husband to take additional time off - ie SPL, your maternity leave has to end and you also go on to SPL. The two of you have an additional 50 weeks to split between you however you choose - he could have all or none of those weeks, you could each take 25 weeks off together and return to work afterwards, or do them consecutively. Your employer can deny a request to take SPL in more than one block (eg. One month off, one month back, two months off) but not the taking of it.

SPL stat pay is the same as maternity pay, but to know what you/he will each get paid you'll need to see those policies. Since my husband and I have separate employers, each of which paid any time off in the first 18 weeks at full pay, we both got paid for all the additional time he took off (five weeks, in the end). I suspect that SPL pay policies need to be identical to mat leave pay, otherwise they'd be discriminatory, but I can't say that definitively.

Trust the gov.uk website over what people are telling you here, and if you think either of your employers aren't compliant, challenge it!

No you wouldn't have to take SPL yourself, by giving notice that you are ending your mat leave at 9 months, you then free up the last 3 months to be used by either you or your husband as SPL. That is the last 3 months in terms of pay entitlement (so presumably unpaid) but doesn't have to be the last 3 months chronologically. Employers can't dictate whether both parents can be off at the same time, just that the maximum leave between the two is 1 year (excluding 2 weeks paternity).

www.maternityaction.org.uk/advice-2/mums-dads-scenarios/shared-parental-leave-and-pay/

My DH doesn’t work for the NHS but has been denied shared parental leave by his employer based on the fact that you ‘can’t take it at the same time’. I know this is against the government guidelines but I’ve heard it from many people on here before, it’s an area that employers don’t seem to know too much about and it’s frustrating! DH is taking 4 additional weeks unpaid leave instead.

Unless there is some reason you haven’t mentioned for you to need the additional support, 2 wks paternity and 2 weeks leave will get you through the first month and after that I found things started to get easier. My H worked nights and I used to love that bit when he came home and took over so I could rest. I used to go out in the day (not all day) and visit mum or friends or go for a walk. Most babies don’t cry all the time. You dont need luggage - just a changing bag and mode of transport, i.e. car seat, pushchair, sling. If you can/choose to bf it is easier as no bottles to deal with and also a great settler for baby.

I don't really understand your worries.
If he's only an StR and you aren't going TTC until next year he is likely to have moved Trusts at least twice- most move on every 12 months (some even 6).
I'm a consultant surgeon- and yes have recently experienced male trainees having parental leave- it is never denied.
However......
The elephant in the room is that it is exceedingly difficult/impossible to get short term locums and the post is often gapped. The deanery simply would never cover 3 months with a locum either. This means others would need to cover his job and do their own job. Clearly this is unpopular with bosses (who act down to cover) or StR colleagues who have to cover his out of hours duties. Don't forget also it adds 3 months on to his CCT date and he may be aiming for a particular job or fellowship.
Surgery remains male-dominated and stuck in its ways I'm afraid and certainly these new requests raise eyebrows from traditional colleagues!

I don’t know anyone who both managed to be off at the same time, although that would be marvellous. In the public sector mother needs to have ended maternity leave, so either back at work or actually quit work before the shared parental leave can be taken by the other partner

Main reason is because lots of companies have enhanced maternity pay for six months. But shared parental leave is generally statutory (135 per week) only, so financially makes sense to stay on enhanced maternity rather than flip onto statutory.

But agree with others that you are worrying unnecessarily. It doesn’t require two adults full time to look after a newborn. In fact there is little that a second person can do in many ways. Get a cleaner and a load of easy cook food for you and you will be fine.

@Purpleflower1983 and OP a lot of employers are behind on the law.

My OH has had 3 different shared parental leave policies given to him within the 7 months he's been chasing them up. He was given the latest policy 4 weeks ago after demanding clarification for the previous one.

If there is a union in your workplace and especially if you are a member of that union, you need to get them challenge the policy if you think it goes against the government guidance. (Though they are likely to rely on case law in seeing what's fair.) Unfortunately most people don't look at parental leave policies until they need them making challenging them difficult due to time.

m.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4911

Guides showing you can be off together

www.bma.org.uk/-/media/files/pdfs/employment%20advice/contracts/junior%20doctor%20contract/junior-doctors-handbook-2016-tcs-sept2016-amended.pdf?la=en

Pg 54/55. I'd interpret that as you'd have to give 8 weeks' notice of the end date of your maternity leave to overlap.

YouFightLikeADairyFarmer is absolutely bang on in her advice. I'm ex public sector HR (not NHS) and a lot of the well meaning advice on here is wrong. Shared parental leave is one of those areas that many people don't understand and many employers do not understand it either, which leads to employees believing their employers are correct.

From the government website:

"The mother (or the person getting adoption leave) must either:

• return to work, which ends any maternity or adoption leave
• give their employer ‘binding notice’ of the date when they plan to end their leave (you cannot normally change the date you give in binding notice)

You can start SPL while your partner is still on maternity or adoption leave as long as they’ve given binding notice to end it."

The information on the government website is the only answer. Anything else has been misinterpreted. You cannot supercede the law.

As long as the OP and her DH are both eligible for SPL then they can both take off time together as long as the OP notifies her work when she intends to return to work. However, she needs to do this in line with any time constraints and must be aware that her return to work date is likely non changeable).

Re pay. Statutory ShPP is paid the same as statutory maternity and paternity pay. However the OP has enhanced maternity pay so it stands to reason that ShPP would also be enhanced so that her employer isn't discriminating - same advice to her DH (if his employer pay enhanced paternity pay then ShPP is likely also enhanced). However they both need to check their own policies to confirm whether ShPP is indeed enhanced. For example my previous public sector employer paid 6 months full maternity pay and ShPP (even when both parents were taking the same period of leave).

My personal feeling is that (due to so many people not understanding SPL) any employer who says otherwise likely doesn't understand the rules of SPL, rather than being malicious. If you meet any resistance then Maternity Action or ACAS can help - I would suggest the latter in the first instance.

OP, I understand why you are concerned. I tend to worry about "what ifs" and like to get everything pinned down in advance. Aside from potentially meeting an employer who doesn't understand the law, you won't have any problems in principle with your preferences. They are protected by law. Whether you have to explain to them that you are right and they are wrong is another matter entirely. The only way you will get any answer re pay is to check your policies, but if you think there's anything discriminatory or not in line with the law then Maternity Action can help.

I promise there were paragraphs when I wrote that!

My partner and I were not NHS and when I looked into it basically I had to swap some of my maternity leave to him. We could not be off together apart from the initial paternity allowance after birth.

Your employer was wrong then you stop your mat leave go onto shared and you can be off together albeit it gets messy if your on enhanced but effectively say the last three months unpaid you stop your mat leave at end of month 9. Go on shared months 10-12. You can either say one be off a month and half then the other a month and a half or both be off a month and half together.

I'm a civil servant and found that even government HR didn't really understand the law and had to refer them to Acas.

But you do not have to have actually finished your maternity leave for your DH to take SPL, just given binding notice of the date you will end it. He can take his SPL whenever he wants, providing he gives sufficient notice, and in up to 3 blocks. Shared parental pay does not need to be enhanced even if maternity is (there's case law on it) so long as men and women receive the same shared parental pay provisions from the employer.