Parking ticket in our own parking space!

[hungryhippo90]

We have been given a parking ticket in our own space,
We do have permits, but the permit must have blown out of the dashboard, I still have it but the particular day I got the ticket the permit was on the floor when I got in.

I still have the permit,

I’ve appealed, apparently POPLA have reviewed this, and the ticket still stands, despite us parking in the parking space that we are permitted to use, solely.

Yesterday we got a letter saying that payment was required immediately or the debt company that’s been handed the PCN will recommend the client refers the matter to court.

AIBU to have replied saying that I’d happily have the matter taken to court, as we can prove that we rightfully parked in our own bay, the address they sent our parking permit to, is the same they’ve sent the PCN etc to, so it’s not like we parked somewhere they shouldnt have, and the parking permit was in the car. I have documents relating to the parking space being ours.

DH is concerned it will just become a bigger debt.

Whilst I’m at it, am I being U to ask that we have the information POPLA have sent in relation to the appeal as I never received any sort of reply after sending off my letter of appeal to them.

I think it’s all a bit of a shit show, they won’t have that we don’t owe money for parking in our own space, they keep reiterating that the parking ticket is due for not showing the permit.

Guienne, there is so much wrong in what you have said. Here is a good read up on it.

My husband parked in an NCP car park in Dec 17. In Jan 18 we got a parking fine. He swore he paid for his parking and he swore he paid by card. It was one of those ones where you pay when you leave. He checked his bank account and there it was £2.50.
We sent copies of the bank statement to them in the appeal and they rejected it. We sent it to popla and they rejected it! We were dumbfounded. Don't trust that whole popla thing. We clearly had paid.

Now they have passed to a legal firm and are threatening to take us to court. We even got a letter f Hsbc to say that the transaction happened on the same day and was cleared the next day. There can be no confusion. We have said happy to go to court as we clearly ducking paid! Haven't heard from them since.

Whatsthecomingovertgehill is right and everyone else saying you have to pay is wrong.
If you have parking rights granted to you by A, neither A nor B or C can come along later and add new terms (requirement to display a permit, a charge for failing to do so). Where you already have parking rights, neither can B come along and offer you the same rights but on different terms. This is basic contract law.

OP if you dig you may find that the contract between the parking co and the freeholder or management co includes a clause where they can insist on a cancellation of a ticket given to a genuine resident. Get yourself to MSE, read some residential threads and start your own thread. You'll get much better informed advice there than you will here. Those assisted by the forum members have over a 95% success rate.

Sunsandwaterslides, same advice to you.
Your defence is you complied with the T&Cs and there is no valid claim.

You can buy parking ticket clips on eBay for a couple of pounds, they stick to your windscreen and you slide your ticket in. I live somewhere very windy!

Surely if it's on the floor the warden could see it through the window if they bothered to look

It foamy sound like you’ve appealed to popla, in the first instance you have to appeal to the parking company, if they reject the appeal then you are given a number in which to appeal to popla, you would receive a reply from popla not the parking company !! Popla would be very unlikely to uphold this ticket, check you’ve appealed to the right person

I’ve just read your post again , you appealed to the parking company, they declined it so now you have to appeal to popla,

Nearly two years ago my son borrowed my car. Parked in a Lidl car park ( another city 200 miles away) where you imput your car reg no and then get free parking with your receipt as you leave, which he did. I received a parking charge notice from Athena, who monitor the car park, as the car was registered to me. They wanted to know who was driving the car. I confirmed I was the owner but said I understood I was not obligated to say who was driving, but it was not me. I explained that the driver had told me he must have inadvertently imputed the reg no incorrectly, ie o4, instead of 04 and please would they check their records. Since the driver had borrowed the car from me, surely it was an admissible innocent mistake.

In all I received three letters threatening to double fine and eventually take me to court. I politely replied to each one, repeatedly asking them to check their records. I sent a copy of my son’s bank statement to prove he had spent money at their branch of Lidl on that day. (obviously with his identifying details removed.) They ignored each of my letters. My final letter detailed exactly what I had done and explained, and asked them what they had done. I heard no more.

Check Martin Lewis website and it may be of some help. That’s what I did. Good luck. You seem to have lots of information in your favour. Keep your correspondence polite I advise and it make work in your favour.

You appeal directly to popla they will reply directly to you

Do they have photographic evidence that the ticket wasn't displayed? If not, this happened to me once and I said I had displayed my ticket and that they were wrong. They actually couldn't prove that I hadn't displayed so I didn't end up paying. Ridiculous getting a ticket for parking on your own paid space!

I would hate to have to faff on with a permit to park outside of my own house.

POPLA appeal is only available if parking co is a BPA member. If it's an IPC member you appeal to IAS.

IAS is a kangaroo court and is pointless. POPLA isn't much better. They are not lawyers, have no training, are not regulated or accountable, adjudicators do not show consistency in decisions and apply a reverse burden of proof.
To the PP who had the issue with Lidl, they always cancel tickets if you email the Lidl CEO.
If you use the MSE advice, use the forum I've linked to, not Martin Lewis's advice which is shockingly out of date and wrong.

whatsthecomingoverthehill, that article acknowledges that lease terms may allow for variation permitting the introduction of this sort of scheme.

Guienne this is quite complex.
Leases (not tenancies) will provide for something called "estate regulations" or another similar term. Some also provide for "block regulations" or similar.
ERs will deal with the common areas - eg no ball games, no BBQs in the gardens, no dogs off leads, no horse riding, no littering and bins to go in designated areas etc.
BRs will deal with what you can do in the flats - eg no BBQs on balconies, no loud music, sound proof flooring etc.

There will be a clause saying that new ERs can be introduced. To see what these may be you have to look carefully at the definitions. Both of the ERs themselves (the definition may be clear that it does not include parking) and the areas ERs apply to (which is often NOT the parking areas).

Often the definitions are so clear that you can show that new parking regs can't be introduced under the clause providing for new ERs. Other times it's arguable but not clear.

Then the next issue is whether, even if it's arguable that new parking regs can be introduced under this clause, they have been introduced properly. Leases can only be varied in writing.

Then there is the issue of the charges for failing to follow the new permit requirement. The Lease (and any new ERs introduced under it) can only oblige you to pay ground rent/service charge. It can not impose a requirement for you to pay anything else and most certainly not to third parties like a parking co.

If you buy a flat which either includes a demised space (ie you own the space) or which includes dedicated parking rights, why should the management company then impose a regime on you which you never signed up for, where you are expected to display a permit and where you are penalised for human error (it falls off/you forget). The permit system also precludes cars authorised by you from parking in your space, which is your right.

Before questioning, please educate yourself. If you want to see a very full legal explanation of the above, and a great victory for the leaseholder, go to the MSE forum I linked to and search for a thread by a poster called hairray.

Thanks shalli. It does get frustrating on forums (not just this one) where the opinions seem to be either "Ignore it, they can't enforce it" or "the parking companies won at the supreme court so you have to pay up now" with no in between.

The parking company are clearly knobs for not rescinding the ticket on appeal

What people don't understand is what the Supreme Court Judgment in Beavis v Parking Eye was actually about. It was not about whether the charge was enforceable per se. It was about the amount.

In fact, Mr Beavis agreed that he had breached the parking terms.
In a nutshell, he argued that the parking co charge of £100 was a penalty and not a reflection of true loss and that he should pay less.
The SC decided that the penalty rule was disengaged and the PPC could charge what was on the sign (£100).

It also said that every case would turn on individual facts and in this case it was free parking for 2 hours in a retail park where there was a commercial justification in turning over customers and the signage was exceptionally clear. Neither of which apply to many cases.

Jesus there's some poor advice here.
I had the exact same thing thing OP - except my permit was still visible on the car seat.
If you own the land they cannot offer you a contract to park on your own land - by renting your landlord has extended that to you.
In my case the contract with the private parking company was signed by our building factors - but they are our agent (and we can get rid of them if enough residents agree) and cannot enforce it either.
I suggest asking for a copy of the contract between PPC and factor - initially my lot weren't backing down but I noticed an anomaly in the contract (our building number was missed off) which essentially voided it.
As others have suggested, look at the pepipoo website for more expert advice.

The trouble is the managing of agent/management company often fob residents off, refusing to provide the contract and telling them they have to pay. Someone in this position recently on the MSE forum had to get really tough before they gave him the contact. And lo and behold there was a clause saying the MC could instruct the parking co to cancel tickets given to residents. Nobody at the MC had realised this until he pointed it out. Ticket then got cancelled. But if he hadn't been like a dog with a bone the MC would have washed its hands of responsibility and the parking co would have sued him if he didn't pay up.
These parking cos aren't interested in sensibly managing parking. They exercise no discretion at all. They are just money making machines. If there are no errant parkers they'll just ticket the residents.

Pepipoo is also a good resource. I just prefer the MSE forum.

I got off once on the street when my ticket fell behind the dashboard. I proved I bought it by fishing it out, but this was 16 years ago and they prob weren’t as strict then. Good luck, I would keep going.

I also recommend money saving expert and pepipoo. Posters on there have lots of helpful information about it.
Also contact your landlord. The land owner should be able to cancel charge. Remember this is not a parking fine or is an invoice.

I definitely would fight this even if they had to take me to court

JustDance believe it or not councils are much more sensible than private parking cos. If you can prove you paid they usually let you off because they haven't suffered any loss.

Thanks everybody, a lot of really useful information here, Ive related all I’ve seen so far to my husband, and oddly enough we’ve both had a change of heart, he now thinks we need to fight it and I think we should just pay it. I have signed up for the Facebook group that was mentioned early on in the post,
And I will spend some time on money saving expert and pepipoo during this weekend,

I’ll be dragging out a note book to take some notes.

Thank you all. Xx