To be appalled at the lack of access for wheelchairs & prams

[Bowejangles]

Travelling across London today with DS 7mo in his pram, arrived at London bridge to find there's no lifts down to the underground available, only a shit load of escalators then some stairs after that.

Had to carry an excitable and very wriggly baby down the moving escalators in my arms. Escalators were heaving with people rushing past, bumping into us. Nervous is an understatement, it was downright dangerous.

Aibu to think this is ridiculously unsafe and not acceptable for one of the busiest stations in london?

More over, how the hell are people in wheelchairs supposed to use the underground?

You're probably not meant to (and no help to wheelchair users either) but I used to take my buggy/pram on the escalators with my baby still in it - I found it easier and safer than trying to balance whilst holding a wiggly one and everything else in your arms.

There is a lift, its just in an awkward place. TFL staff are usually really helpful though, if you ask they will take you there or at least let you know where to go. They are doing a lot of work on accessibility, but in some of the stations structurally its just not possible; but it is disgraceful.

YANBU. Access in general for pushchairs and wheelchairs is crap.

I've been thinking about this a lot recently, due to a wheelchair being in my not too distant future. I get the train into Marylebone and then go across to Westminster. Neither Marylebone or Baker Street have step free access to the tube. My only option to get to work is going to be a taxi both ways at a cost of around £40 a day or nearly £10,000 a year. And that's before I even think about the difficulties involved in navigating my building. It's a big worry.

I agree OP, it's a nightmare getting around parts of the underground with a buggy. My local station has no lift & a flight of stairs with 2 turns. You are entirely reliant on a kindly stranger to help you with the buggy.
However there is definitely a lift to the jubilee line at London Bridge, I just passed through it 20 mins ago

Yes other posters are right, London Bridge has a lift as all stations on the newer part of jubilee line (there's lift access to the northern line too). Its my nearest station and I've used it with a buggy many times. The lift is bit hidden compared to other jubilee line stations, but it's there and I found the staff very helpful in terms of helping me get to it when I used for the first time. It could have been out of order though but I'm thinking that would not have happened twice so next time you used London Bridge ask the station staff.

The underground is generally really old so that makes accessibility tricky, maybe I'm forgiving but because of this I do not think it's a 'scandal' that the tube is not fully accessible, tfl are trying and have put lifts in many stations over recent years but it's bloody hard to do. When my kids were younger I either avoided using the tube or used a sling instead of a pram (harder to do when you have 2 kids or lots of luggage but it does open up the tube)

No they can add a lift the choose not too because it would be expesive they could also widen the platforms to but it would cost alot of money so its "unviable" not impossible and btw London bus are horrendous for wheelchair users because prams dont move for them and i once had to stand in the rain for 2 hours (bus every 10 minutes) because there were a pram in the space and bus driver said tough all these occasions.

I look after a child in a wheelchair in London. We just don’t get the tube. So much of it is entirely off limits, and we’ve had too many experiences where we turn up to a station that’s supposed to have access and a lift is out of order, so we’re stuck. Last week we took two buses from Tooting to Paddington, took us an hour and a half, then when we arrived we couldn’t access the cafe we were heading to as the lift was broken. Luckily passing strangers helped us up the 12 steps, probably to the detriment of all of our backs!

But basically, we avoid the tube. Overground services are the best of the bunch, since it’s the newest line, but we tend to stick to buses and accept it will take us hours to get anywhere.

Hey OP I live in central London. And know about the pain of London Bridge too! I really recommend the Mumderground app. It's great for knowing in advance the exact pram friendliness of each tube station and interchange.

Oh and you can get stepfree access at London Bridge during the work they are doing but you have to exit the station and enter again around the corner. If you tell the barrier staff that's why you're exiting and entering then you don't get charged extra for leaving.

The answer is you have to book 'assistance' at least 2 days ahead.

Which is not much use when you get off a train at New Cross (before the grand central upgrade) and find the lift is out of order so you need assistance but wouldn't usually.

I ended up calling Virgin ticket office, who called the station who found a member of staff. 2 hours on the platform.

Im disabled and use a walker so in a similar boat. Thing is most of the underground was built in victorian times so no lifts and impossible for them to put lifts in. I normally take someone with me or plan journey really well or get taxis from Liverpool St.

Accessibility in the UK is shit - and getting worse.

One thing that narks me slightly, though, is that wheelchairs, and pushchairs are not equivalent. If a pushchair comes to a step, it can be wheeled over it (gently). I know this because when DW and I were at a brand new complex in Birmingham (Brindleyplace) the single step which ended our journey was no problem to parents who just went over it. The wheelchair route required a life that was a 400m round trip away (and broken anyway).

Same with dropped kerbs. A pushchair comes to a blocked dropped kerb it's relatively straightforward to go around, and bump down. Whereas for a wheelchair (or mobility scooter) it can be "no day out today. Loser."

They built a new costa near us with a ramp inside between two levels. I saw the plans, and the ramp was so delivery drivers could wheel trolleys into the kitchen. They hadn't considered accessibility when they built it (there are other clues too ....)

That's a new building.

Most London stations are too old to have been planned with accessibility in mind. This doesn't mean it's fine but it's a fact.

The best thing to do when travelling across London with a pram or wheelchair is look for the wheelchair symbol by the station on the tube map and check if it means access to platform and station or just one of those and plan your route this way if possible. If not, buses are best option with pram or wheelchair - however that doesn't make this fair or ok as journeys are often much longer.

YANBU, these are just tips for easier accessible travelling.

YANBU I used to hate getting tubes but after 3 years of having a baby/toddler in London I’d pretty much sussed our where to go and where to avoid. It must be a mindfield for visitors though.

Most London stations are too old to have been planned with accessibility in mind. This doesn't mean it's fine but it's a fact.

And yet, DW - in wheelchair - and I managed to get much further in London than we would have anywhere else for the same time and effort.

Level access onto Tube at Pinner - level interchange to Jubilee LIne to Green Park, lift to surface, and mile walk to Westminster where we then got the lift at Westminster station and went back that way.

Or the time we went from Woolwich Arsenal to the Emirates - again step free with lifts.

Currently can't even cross Victoria Square in Brum with a wheelchair.

Oh, by the way ... GRAVEL MIGHT LOOK FUCKING NICE, BUT IF YOU DON't WANT WHEELCHAIRS CLUTTERING UP THE PLACE WHY NOT JUST SAY SO.

The www.tfl.gov.uk site shows the access arrangements for each station, we use it a lot to minimise the steps in any journey, it makes quite a difference.

I hate it when counters are high... completely inaccessible to anyone in a wheelchair

I hate it when counters are high... completely inaccessible to anyone in a wheelchair

We had our honeymoon 11 years ago in a little seaside village in Spain. The accessibility there (mandated by the Spanish government) put the UK to shame. Every bar had a lower counter, and they all had proper concrete ramps, and separate disabled toilets. Most definitely not a touristy place at all, so it wasn't specially done for tourists.

Disabled access is still shocking across the UK.

Lifts - where they exist, are often hard to locate, doors too narrow, (I can't actually access my local job centre/benefits office/library, because the lift down is too narrow for my chair and is the ONLY access) and often out of order.

Of course if a lift is your only way in or out of somewhere and theres a fire and you can't use the lift, the option available to wheelchair users is ... die.

Surfaces - gravel, potholes, steep cambers, rough ground, uneven ground, fucking decorative fucking cobbles.... all a pain in the arse and everywhere else for wheelchair users.

Doorways - often too narrow or require the other half of the pair of doors unlocking sometimes no one knows how or the key is lost, steep steps or lips at door thresholds are another issue that some won't get over.

Doors - too heavy, no button, if there is a button its in a stupid fucking place you cant reach or have to be IN the way of the door as it opens.

Ramps - where provided are very often totally unsafe, too steep, to narrow, slippery.

Disabled toilets - I've come across many i cant GET in without abandoning my chair to do so, and plenty that once i do get in are not usable (for example, toilet too high off the floor!) Barely any toilet facilities are fully compliant iwth the law and some are inaccessible and/or dangerous.

Public transport - a fucking nightmare, not in most places something one can rely on for regular transport if you have any sort of deadline or appointment time - as most of us do.

Seating and counter tops - too high, too many fixed booths and high bar counter bar stool seating areas.

Aisles/spaces between tables - too narrow/small, risk knocking over stock or having to ask loads of people to move.

As a wheelchair user, EVERY trip out has to be planned in advance if you don't know the place you are going to extremely well. You cannot be spontaneous without runnign the very real risk of things going tits up.

You are expected to book assistance on train transport in advance so no spontaneity there, but its more than likely it wont actually turn up to get you on or off the train.

You phone ahead to restaurants and stores to find out if they are accessible, they will almost always tell you tehy ARE then you get there and find what they mean is, they have a portable ramp that is too short and narrow for your chair, or they don't have a toilet, or the toilet they do have is used as a storage area for beer kegs and high chairs or..... so many things!

Basically going out, as a disbled person, means shit will go wrong, you won't be able to get in where you want, you'll need help and won't get it, or be left stranded and you'll have to change plans at the last minute, it will be very stressful and craptacular.

These things are not one offs or raritys, when you see them go viral on facey etc, its easy to think they are - this is daily, this is all the time, every time, relentless shit.

There is a rolling programme across national rail to make all stations step free, but it takes time.

The London Underground is a lot more difficult with the old structures and the way they're all set up.

You can download a step free access tube map here:-
content.tfl.gov.uk/step-free-tube-guide-map.pdf

And what gets me is how many big name shops are so badly thought out. We have just been to get School uniform from m and s and even in there it was impossible to manoeuvre ds in his chair around.

So many disabled toilets have heavy doors and then when you manage to get in hardly any room to actually move. Even for ds who doesn’t need a great deal of help toileting they are hardly suitable a lot of the time, for those who need a lot of help or completely changing they are unusable.

Most accessibility is simply a tick box exercise rather than anything aiming to be helpful

Lifts - where they exist, are often hard to locate, doors too narrow, (I can't actually access my local job centre/benefits office/library, because the lift down is too narrow for my chair and is the ONLY access) and often out of order.

Even when that's not the case, you then have deal with the lift being full every time it stops. No problem if there's just room for DW - I'll take the stairs (and get there first ). But if there's no room at all ?

More than one occasion I've gone up/down a floor to get in the lift, so I can get out at DWs floor so she can get in. Because nobody else will.

Anyone ever checked out the "accessibility" section on websites ? 9 times out of 10 it's all about the website accessibility. Not the physical location accessibility.

But there are lifts at London Bridge! I’ve used them with big suitcases and a buggy on separate occasions recently

Most accessibility is simply a tick box exercise

Not even that. I've challenged inaccessible layouts in new builds before. Never once seen a document demonstrating how the project takes account of the various DDAs.

Fair play to Wolverhampton City Council who did consider it, when they planned the "ring of steel" (why ????????) last year. It made disabled parking inaccessible, but they had provided a route to a separate space for when events are on. This was critical, as the route involved breaking a no right turn which had a camera setup ... they responded to my emailed FOI request (see separate thread about how phone calls can't be beaten for responding to emails ...) with a proper document clearly showing the consideration. Really it was overkill. When was the last time any organisation was held accountable for shit accessibility ?