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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Respite taken away.

275 replies

Respite24 · 16/08/2018 16:54

I've put this in AIBU for traffic and in case I have been unreasonable, also name changed, I hope someone is able to point me in the right direction.
My son is 30 years old has severe learning difficulties, autism and a number of medical and mobility problems.
He has had highest rate DLA and mobility component since he was three and now gets highest rate PIP and mobility component.
I have always used his mobility for a motability car.
He goes to a day centre four days a week, collected and brought home in minibus.
He used to pay for travel until about four years ago (but could be longer ago than that) when SS began to pay, it was included in the charges from day centre.
Last year our local Social Service Adult Learning team decided every service user who was in receipt of mobility component should pay cost of travel, about £17 per week.
I refused to pay it on my son's behalf as his mobility is used for his car. An independant advocate was called in and he agreed that my son had already been assessed by LA finance as paying the maximum for his care charges.
I suggested SS use son's car, it is for his use but obviously they would have to arrange driver and insurance (I knew this wasn't reasonable, knew they wouldn't/couldn't do it) this took place around February 2017.
I have heard nothing since.
But, he had 24 nights per year respite.
The manager of the autism respite unit has just rung me to say that his contract has been changed to 14 nights per year.
No assessment meeting, no communication of any kind.

What can I do? I am worried that the two things are linked together, my inital refusal to pay transport costs and the Advocate's agreement with that, and the withdrawal of the number of nights respite my son has.
I never used respite until he was 26/27 years old, it has always been 24 nights.
What can I do?
Sorry for the ramble.

OP posts:
Spikeyball · 17/08/2018 07:19

You are still not getting it. The local authority cannot expect him to fund his transport to day centre using mobility pip. It is unlawful. They can use his car but they cannot expect the OP to drive him.

Spikeyball · 17/08/2018 07:23

If you want to know the ins and outs of why it is unlawful go and look it up yourself.

FruitCider · 17/08/2018 07:23

he local authority cannot expect him to fund his transport to day centre using mobility pip. It is unlawful

I'll ask again - how is it unlawful?

FruitCider · 17/08/2018 07:24

If you want to know the ins and outs of why it is unlawful go and look it up yourself

No, you are the one making a claim about a fact therefore it's up to you to back that up I'm not doing your leg work for you!

Spikeyball · 17/08/2018 07:32

"Many local authorities are likewise stating that they do not provide help with travel costs because individuals should pay for this from the mobility component of their DLA (or PIP etc). This is equally unlawful – and the fact that the mobility component must be disregarded for the purposes of the Care Act 2014 charging regime makes no difference: there are sound reasons why the mobility component is disregarded for virtually all central government and local government income assessment"

There you go and there is more if you want it including the actual ruling but this is clearer.

Dovesfly · 17/08/2018 07:43

@FruitCider you keep referring to your uncle but it's not comparable to providing constant care for disabled child/adult.

You clearly have no clue of the stress, emotions & exhaustion involved in caring for a disabled child/adult that has complex needs. You don't just dip in & out as you do if the relative doesn't live with you ( I've experienced both I know the difference).

Each time you make a comparison your lack of understanding of this situation is clearer.

Op needs the break the day care gives, her break will be significantly reduced if she has to drive her son back & forward. When you are at this stage of exhaustion that extra bit often feels too much- if you haven't experienced this people don't always get that, as your posts clearly show.

Financially cuts have come left, right & centre- caring for a disabled child/adult is expensive, you have to try to protect the money given or you'd soon be left with nothing if everyone succeeded in adding extra charges to save their own departments budgets. None think of the consequences for the individuals and their families.

Dovesfly · 17/08/2018 07:45

OP I hope your phone call gets some positive responses, it's so wrong everything is always a fight.

Penfold007 · 17/08/2018 07:48

@Fruitcider take a look at Professor Clement's web site: www.lukeclements.co.uk/resources/transport-to-social-care-services/
You will be able to workout exactly why using the mobility part of PIP to fund assessed social transport needs is unlawful. The site may also help you ensure you get the support your uncle needs and deserves.

starryskies78 · 17/08/2018 07:55

Hope you're feeling stronger today op.

Wishing you as much strength as you can get for your battle.

Kardashianlove · 17/08/2018 07:56

all I've questioned is why the money is spent on a car she can't utilise 4 days a week

It’s 8 journeys a week. The OP probably uses the car for her DS the majority of the time. They may go out after he gets back from the day centre. The OP could well use the car while he’s at day care for her DS benefit (collecting prescriptions for him, going to buy him equipment he needs, food he needs, returning clothes he can’t wear due to sensory issues, etc, etc).

The money is spent on a car to benefit the OPs DS as he may not be able to go out otherwise.

Getting her DS to day centre is not OPs responsibly as his mum or his career. I’m confused as to how to don’t understand it.

Is it because OP is his mum you think she should take him there and back like she would with a child? Or because she’s his carer? What about if she cared for another relative instead who she didn’t live with? Would she be expected to take them back and forwards to a day centre, even if they had a mobility car? If OP worked, would you expect her to quit her job to drive her DS to the centre?

TheGoldenWolfFleece · 17/08/2018 08:18

I'm not going to sit and read a thread full of people telling the Op that she's doing this all wrong and that they know better than her how her and sons live should work.

I have no experience so I will keep my mouth shut on that front except to say it sounds like you are doing an amazing job with very little support. On the point of whether you should argue about whether you should have to take your son to the day centre or whether you should just suck it up and take him. The more the government can get away with putting more and more demands on carers of disabled people the less they will have to pay. Which seems to be the very Ethos of this government the government is not meeting their obligations in respect of disabled people and although this is the Ops son we're talking about why does that mean that she has to be 100% responsible for everything relating to his life? Why aren't the government stepping up to properly take care of a vulnerable adult and his exhausted mother?

She doesn't have to be grateful for whatever scraps the government chooses to throw her and shrug her shoulders and cheerfully take it on herself.

FruitCider · 17/08/2018 08:19

Ive just read the professor Clements site and it outlines that local authorities must make transport arrangements - it doesn't state it is unlawful to charge for this service.

This rather hefty page from gov.uk implies it is lawful to charge separate fares for community not for profit transport provided the correct permits are in place.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/section-19-and-22-permits-not-for-profit-passenger-transport/section-19-and-22-permits-not-for-profit-passenger-transport#annex-6---separate-fare-examples

So whilst it is unlawful for local authorities to deduct money from social care funding awards on the basis of a service user receiving PIP, it is not unlawful for day centres to charge a fixed fare outside of social care funding for transport if they have the correct not for profit community transport permits in place.

This is the pertinent point I was trying to outline earlier without gerund bogged down with the Care Act etc but obviously Spikey wants to drive the conversation forward in that way.

Getting her DS to day centre is not OPs responsibly as his mum or his career. I’m confused as to how to don’t understand it.

I do understand this. What I don't understand is why the OP

a) won't pay a lawful fixed fee for a community not for profit transport service out of her sons benefits

and

b) how she expects her son to get there if she won't pay the fee and won't take him herself

Is it because OP is his mum you think she should take him there and back like she would with a child? Or because she’s his carer?What about if she cared for another relative instead who she didn’t live with? Would she be expected to take them back and forwards to a day centre, even if they had a mobility car?

No see my point above

If OP worked, would you expect her to quit her job to drive her DS to the centre

The OP claims carers allowance - I'm assuming she doesn't earn more than the maximum threshold so would struggle to work more than 16 hours a week. And besides, that's not the point either! The point is the charge for transport is lawful as it's separate to her sons care package and is unconnected to her sons respite package being cut.

danni0509 · 17/08/2018 08:22

*you keep referring to your uncle but it's not comparable to providing constant care for disabled child/adult.

You clearly have no clue of the stress, emotions & exhaustion involved in caring for a disabled child/adult that has complex needs. You don't just dip in & out as you do if the relative doesn't live with you ( I've experienced both I know the difference).

Each time you make a comparison your lack of understanding of this situation is clearer.

Op needs the break the day care gives, her break will be significantly reduced if she has to drive her son back & forward. When you are at this stage of exhaustion that extra bit often feels too much- if you haven't experienced this people don't always get that, as your posts clearly show. *

This

CaledonianQueen · 17/08/2018 08:26

Respite24 I am so sorry that you are being met by several individuals who have zero empathy for your situation. I understand that during the time your son is at his day centre, you are having to achieve basic tasks which are quite simply impossible whilst with your ds. Going grocery shopping, taking yourself to a carer support group or doctors appointment. Oh and not to forget SLEEP! Not to mention the fact that your ds likely is using his motability car during the days he is at the day centre! For example in the mornings or after he is finished at the centre for any medical appointments or for social events.

The mobility component of PIP is not a taxable benefit, therefore it is not allowed to be included in any calculations that SS make regarding the contribution that a service user needs to make towards their care. Those rules are not set by you OP, they are set by the government and should be followed by the local authority! What certain individuals fail to understand is that even without the mobility car, after £17 a week contribution for transport costs to his day centre, you would be left with very little money to pay for the taxi costs to hospital appointments and therapy appointments. In fact if you don’t live five minutes away from the hospital, you could be in the situation where you would need to pay £30-£40 each way to reach the hospital and return home (exactly the cost of transport from my home to our local hospital). Your ds is autistic and the provided hospital transport may not be suitable for him! Not to mention that hospital transport is not provided for every appointment! Taxis are expensive and not every local authority provides taxi cards to allow cheaper taxi fares (my local authority and surrounding local authorities do not!)!

What is also not being mentioned, is that alongside paying for your sons care and transport, you are having to feed and clothe your son, when you have very little money left in the pot from his benefits. You are on a pitiful not ‘princely’ (yes I know you were being sarcastic, however there seems to have been a literal interpretation further back) sum, it is an absolute disgrace and embarrassment the pitiful amount that carers are ‘paid’. Anyone that grudges you that benefit is bloody welcome to go and take over the 24/7 care that your son needs! And it is bloody 24/7, it doesn’t end at 8pm and start up at 8am the next day! You have a doubly incontinent adult who will have toileting needs overnight, not to mention anxiety and meltdowns to deal with. If he even manages to sleep! Having an Aunt Fanny, Uncle John, Cousin Fred who had disabilities and benefits gives you SFA idea of how gruelling and exhausting that care is! And no, going to a care centre doesn’t mean that you are not caring 24/7! It is you who is there when the day centre sends him home early because of a meltdown, or because he is unwell, it’s you who stays at home with him when he is too distressed to even leave the house! Even if you haven’t slept a bloody wink overnight because his seizures were bad or he needed changing twice, or he was anxious about the next day.

Being a parent is a 24/7 job, nobody would deny that, being a parent carer is even more so! You NEED that respite and anyone that grudges you it is an absolutely clueless and cruel individual and should stick to commenting on the Daily Fails articles!

Definitely get an advocate for both your son and yourself if possible! SS will do anything they can to cut costs and I would not be surprised AT ALL, if they have done this deliberately. As a service user with severe disabilities myself I have witnessed how quickly they can turn when you don’t blindly comply with them! There are many wonderful social workers but there are also inhuman bastards who have zero empathy and see service users as a number, not a person (I had the pleasure of meeting one of them!)

You have a right to respite and you should NOT have to transport your son to and from this day centre. Not when the entire reason he is being placed there, is so he learns independence from you! This is a transitional role that is bloody important! His travelling to and from his day centre NEEDS to be separate from you, or there is zero point of him going!

Unfortunately, this thread has attracted the bitter daily fail readers who grudge disabled people and their carers the use of motability cars and of benefits for that matter! They are of the opinion that disabled people are rolling in money, this is despite care costs, travel costs, oh and the same bills that everyone else has! Housing costs, food costs, water costs, electricity/ gas costs (which are often significantly higher due to a disabled person in residence), fuel costs, insurance costs..........Money is TIGHT!

Anyway, I just want you to know that I understand, that I empathise and that I am sorry that you are receiving the bullshit on this thread when you need empathy and support!

Kardashianlove · 17/08/2018 08:35

I’ve no idea of the legalities.

So, you think it’s right that disabled adults should pay for their transport to day centres? Would this not just prevent lots of disabled people being able to attend as they simply can’t afford this?
Or put extra strain on carers. Force some carers to quit their jobs.

If people like OP don’t ‘fight’ for this service to continue, it can end up with more and more cuts and less and less available for disabled people.

Can you understand why OP doesn’t want to take him? And why she doesn’t want to use his money to pay for transport. Fair enough if you think his money should be spent on this but I can uunderstand why OP doesn’t want to use it for this purpose - what OP gets for CA and her DS for DLA probably doesn’t cover costs as it is.

Your posts seem to imply that OP shouldn’t have a motability car if she doesn’t want go take her DS backwards and forwards to the day centre which was the point I was challenging.

Spikeyball · 17/08/2018 08:37

It is not a community not for profit transport if it is an assessed care need.

The day centre is an assessed care need. The local authority has a duty to ensure he can get there - the local authority has this duty not his mother. If he cannot get there by himself, the local authority have to make transport arrangements. This could be a carer ( not his mother) taking him on public transport. It could be providing a minibus or taxi.
You are right in that this can be included in the care costs but the OP's son is already paying maximum care costs so can't be asked to pay anymore.
They cannot get it through the backdoor by asking mobility pip to be used for this because as you have now accepted, this is unlawful.

Kardashianlove · 17/08/2018 08:40

Fantastic post @CaledonianQueen.

Sorry if you’re threads been derailed OP. Maybe post in the SN section for advice on how to increase the respite days and advice on how to dispute the transport. They are two separate issues both need ‘fighting’ for. Although it’s awful that you are still having to do this after 30 years Flowers Good luck.

Kardashianlove · 17/08/2018 08:44

So whilst it is unlawful for local authorities to deduct money from social care funding awards on the basis of a service user receiving PIP, it is not unlawful for day centres to charge a fixed fare outside of social care funding for transport if they have the correct not for profit community transport permits in place.

But isn’t OP DS already paying this? So can’t be expected to pay more? As I said, I’m not knowledgeable on the legal side so may have this wrong. Happy to be corrected/have it explained.

Spikeyball · 17/08/2018 08:51

You are right. Transport for this purpose comes under social care and he is already paying the maximum for this.

Kardashianlove · 17/08/2018 08:57

Thanks @Spikeyball Smile

CaledonianQueen · 17/08/2018 09:00

Op I would put a complaint into SS, Fruit is clearly your sons SW/ CM for her to know so much about your sons care plan! Fruit, how unprofessional!

As for the day centre charging for transport, that bill won’t go to OP, all day centre charges go to SS who have until now covered those costs WITHIN his care plan! Therefore for SS to now take her sons PIP into account IS UNLAWFUL!

Why should OP, on her only days where she gets six hours relief, (meaning instead of working 24 hours, she is working 18) spend two of those hours dropping off and picking up her son?

Would you volunteer your own time unpaid to work two extra hours, on top of an 18 hour shift? Actually perhaps you will volunteer to take over the 24/7 care of OP’s adult son, all for the princely sum of £64 a week? No? Don’t you want to work three 24 hour shifts with no respite, then four eighteen hour shifts for £64.60 a week- 144 hours at the princely rate of £0.44 an hour? How dare she want to work an extra six hours a week for free!

FruitCider · 17/08/2018 09:02

It might be a social care needed but not for profit community transport schemes are allowed to charge services a direct fee for the service as per link I put up previously. It seems that 2 bits of legislation are at odds with each other.

As no I don't expect the OP to transport her son, what I was trying to ascertain is why the car was not available, it appears it is. However there is no one available to drive the car so that mode of transport is defunct on the days the OPs son goes to day care for the purpose of getting him there and back.

Interesting link re Clements though. Many of my own service users have had to pay for housework in the past and I didn't realise that was unlawful!

Kardashianlove · 17/08/2018 09:13

As no I don't expect the OP to transport her son
Ok, fair enough, it’s just your earlier posts read otherwise.
what I was trying to ascertain is why the car was not available, it appears it is
However there is no one available to drive the car so that mode of transport is defunct on the days the OPs son goes to day care for the purpose of getting him there and back.
OP explains early on in the thread that the car is available but she isn’t. I’m not sure how it’s taken you so long to ascertain this!

You were saying that OP shouldn’t use the mobility element to pay for a car if she then can’t use the car to take her son to the centre and back.

This is what other posters and I have said is wrong. If you’ve now realised that your initial thoughts towards the mobility car were wrong then that’s greatSmile

CaledonianQueen · 17/08/2018 09:19

Here an idea then, SS can pay a carer to come and drive op’s son to the day centre! No? She has made a form of transport available? In fact Fruit as you have so many service users yourself, why don’t you drive him there!

Oh because you are too busy enjoying and justifying cutting money from the budgets of very vulnerable service users and pushing already exhausted carers to the absolute limit! Do me a favour, tell me exactly how many appointments that op’s son needs to go on a week, then tell me how much that will cost for op to pay for a taxi for each journey! Then you accompany op on every taxi ride and witness the meltdowns because he can’t handle waiting, or he is overwhelmed, or he takes a seizure. He needs that bloody car so DFOD!

Not to mention many people use their mobility component to purchase an electric wheelchair, would you say they need to give that up to pay transport costs? How dare they spend that benefit!

! Your service users must curse you the minute you leave the room! You are exactly what I was talking about in my first post! You don’t see people anymore do you? You see numbers! Sheep.

Go back to perusing your latest updates sent from your Conservative party membership.

FruitCider · 17/08/2018 09:31

You were saying that OP shouldn’t use the mobility element to pay for a car if she then can’t use the car to take her son to the centre and back.

I'm not sure I did say that, though admittedly I haven't read back. My question was - is the car the most appropriate spend of money if it cannot be used 4 days a week. I can't answer that question because I'm not the OP! I did however mention my uncle who we chose not to get a motability car for as it would depend on one of us being available to drive it, we are able to utilise other forms of transport however and without knowing what level of disability the OPs son has it's difficult to make sensible suggestions that might help her! If I take my uncle on a long car journey with me I simply ask for a small contribution towards fuel (which is token contribution to help my uncle understand car journeys cost money rather than covering any actual costs because my uncle doesn't understand the value of money Wink) but I do understand that for some families a motability car is the only way they can afford a vehicle that is both necessary and adapted.

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