To want to do a PhD?

[hungryharridan]

I'm nearly 50. I'm worried I am too old and nowhere near clever enough. I have a good first degree and a Masters but it was all a very long time ago. I now have four children and a little part time job and I am going mad with boredom and frustration. I want to research and learn and write all day long. Have I left it too late?

I am doing one, but I wouldn't if there were any fees associated with.

Where I live, it is covered by the government's Research Training Program and I have a scholarship from the university. I wouldn't do it if I didn't have either of these things. It wouldn't be worthwhile.

I've worked in finance for a very long time and cringe when I see people taking out loans to fund study. If it's not guaranteed to lead to a well paid and secure job, it is not a good idea. If you can't take the financial hit, it's not worth the cost.

My mum did one at 65. Definitely not too late!

I also agree with Ethylred I don’t think you are too old by any means, but I do wonder if you have a romanticised idea (as I did when I started mine!) of what a PhD entails. It is a hard slog, and very stressful at times. If you don’t get funding it is a lot of money also.

Do you have a burning interest in something specific? If so I’d suggest writing a book or some journal articles instead. Sorry if this sounds negative but I did mine pre children and I can’t imagine how hard it would be raising children and running a household alongside intense PhD study - although I know that plenty of women do do this. Good luck whatever you decide :)

I can only speak for lab work but the slog is a combination of things. You can work on something for years and have it fuck up epically in the lab to the point where it’s unsaveable. I spent two years crossing specific mouse lines to get two genes on one background and it very nearly failed because the buggers ate each other (mouse politics can be serious stuff.)
Or all your results are negative, which is fine in some ways (they are what they are) but it cuts off avenues of research.
You have to be totally self motivated. Research can be harshly critiqued.

Writing up I didn’t find so bad because that was just a case of head down and do it, and work in=work out. But any sort of uncertainty in terms of lab work is stressful and a slog because it can all just fuck up so badly and leave you with nothing. A friend lost all their mice in a flood for example. Three years work down the drain - he was extremely upset about the mice too (youndo get rather attached.)

I am planning on applying in October having completed a BA and just finishing my MA with 3 children and a full time job. The MA in particular has consumed me even though it has been easier time wise as my children are older now (they were 3 under 5 for the BA).

At my institution there are many many older PhD candidates so you are definitely not too old - I'll be 38 when I start.

Do you have a university local to you? I spend a lot of time going along to public lectures, book launches etc in my area and before I started my BA instead of an Access course I did a couple of theoretical modules taught at undergrad level (yr1), would that be an option for you to alleviate your boredom and get you back into then and will also give you time to work out research topics.

PhD fees aren't the only cost of a PhD though -- it depends on what field you are in, but you will have publishing costs, conference and travel costs, lab costs, and group costs as well potentially.

I'd like to do one too. But need to do a Masters first or there is the option of a research Masters. Learning is amazing! Do it, I will be interested in your subject 😗

No, if you have three+ years to devote to a PhD, a way to fund it and realise that it's incredibly demanding/stressful then go for it!

@buttybuttybutthole Why do you need to do a masters first?

The first 9 months of the PhD a usually an MPhil, unless you need to specialise first or improve a grade, there's often no need to do a Masters first. You can apply for an MPhil and then transfer to the PhD programme if you have funding.

From an arts POV, it was more about the scale of the argument (which becomes obvious when writing up).

100,000 words of original thought, shaped into a tight, coherent, structured argument is no mean feat. It's nothing like a masters thesis. You need a strong vision for the overall piece and absolute attention to detail throughout. You need to be prepared to defend every single point you make (my viva lasted 3 hours and felt very tough). There's always something more you could have read - you need to be on top of all the relevant scholarship.

And there's always the possibility that you go down a rabbit hole and have to redo large chucks. It became obvious that my original idea was too broad for me to do justice to, so I had to refocus and recast my material quite far into the process. That nearly finished me.

A friend lost all their mice in a flood for example. Three years work down the drain - he was extremely upset about the mice too

A friend lost his worms in similar circumstances. It rankles despite the passage of >10 years.

On the general topic, a good supervisor is invaluable - an indifferent one can pretty much break your spirit.

See Hawkie, I didn't even know that! I just seems a huge leap I guess...especially when I don't know things 🤑

I had a five hour defence with one Nobel laureate and one utter arsehole (the arsehole’s work I partially contradicted.)

It remains something I actually can’t think about without terror. And that’s almost twenty years down the line. I passed, but it was like having my soul ripped out and critiqued.

@buttybuttybutthole Yep! Definitely save yourself a stressfull Masters year if you can - it doesn't necessarily add anything to a PhD in a lot of cases.

I have known people who have done PhD's in retirement. One in history and one in English. I'm sure any humanities department will have had older PhD students. For a history PhD the research council or uni might require you to do a research track masters first depending on what your masters was. The first thing is to find a possible supervisor as they will help you develop the project. Maybe go and speak to your old department? Armed with some possible research areas to suggest. The research and writing for a history PhD are both a slog (you start writing earlier in the process than you'd think) but a work ethic gained from the world of work will help. It's totally possible.

Agree with the point about Masters, though many PhDs require it unless you have industry experience that is relevant. Maybe a second Masters would be the route anyway OP as if you are bored you might enjoy being with other people. Depending on your discipline and how involved or active you can be with the research community at your institution a PhD could be quite isolating.

Thank you all, that's been really helpful. And to everyone who has experienced a mouse/worm/flood disaster - what a nightmare after all that work.

I would still love to do a PhD one day but I will look into other options as well and keep an eye on funding opportunities. In the meantime, as a couple of pp have said, there is nothing to stop me researching and writing anyway - and who knows where that could lead?

To everyone currently slogging through it - good luck!

Bit late to this, but I'm currently doing a PhD in my 50s, having changed discipline and done an MA first, on a topic I created, that I'm really interested in, got funding for, and have a wonderful supervisor I really like. I'm half way through. It's certainly one of the hardest things I've ever done, and I've done some hard things. The bad moments are bad. I sometimes wonder why I have turned my cosy life over like this, and who will ever care. My structure may all be wrong. I feel guilty when I'm not working. I will never read everything I want to. On the upside, I think completely differently from before I started, it's taught me so much, I love my research time, and I'm making progress. But it's really, really hard. It is not a hobby, it's more like a 3 or 4 year initiation ritual with writing . In fact, that is exactly what it is. Think carefully, and if you still want to do it ... great.

Nothing anybody else said would have put me off, but having done one I would only do more Masters degrees in future!

I don't think you're too old and if you can fund it yourself, go for it. However, I do feel that taking out a loan when you may possibly not work again and be able to pay the loan back is unfair.

No it's not too late. I'm 50, left teaching ages ago & temped as no idea what route to go. Just finished Psychology degree. I asked course co-ordinators re fees etc and got a bursary.

There are a number of study guides available on how to write an appropriate PhD proposal, and what it's like to embark on one. As another poster said finding a supervisor is a really important step. They need to be someone actively researching in the area, and you may have to be prepared to commute to find the right person.

Also there will be those in demand as supervisors who have great academic/research credentials but are not so great at supervision or disappear to do their own research. So you need to find out as much as possible about their current supervisees, what the research culture is and so on...For example do they have networks set up for graduate students so you won't be completely isolated?

What are the library/resource facilities, if you're outside London you may need to commute to use the British Library for example, although there will be a lot of online materials; but some of those may be restricted depending on what databases are available through the institution's library. What's the completion rate for PhD students for that supervisor? And so on...

Not unreasonable at all. Look at Open.ac.uk and also Reading University (latter does part time/distance and course fees seem reasonable).

Late on this, but you are not being at all unreasonable to want to do a PhD. When I did mine in History I had a few friends / peers who were doing it in their 50s - one has now gone on to publish 2 books. You have the qualifications and experience to do one.

Funding is important. If you can get funding you can treat it like a job. If you don't it can be very difficult, particularly to keep up your motivation when the inevitable slump in confidence or interest happens. Writing for that length on one topic requires a lot of motivation.

You need a subject you are passionate about. It's a massive commitment of time. You also need one in which you can make a genuine contribution to the field, through original research. You need a viable research plan - so consider where your sources are. And you need to be good on writing, which is the most difficult bit. You need a knowledgeable and supportive supervisor. All the PhDs I saw that failed lacked one of these things.

The University of Surrey is holding a webinar on 5th Sept for people interested in PhD/postgrad study. Might be worth listening in even if Surrey isn't the right Uni for you. I've registered.