LGBT+ at summer camp?

[TreeSqueak]

My dc are at a summer camp this week. It's a day camp run by a youth movement. The leaders are aged from 17/18 to mid-20s, the children 6-11. I can't fault the care, my dc have come home every day burbling with happiness, exhausted, loving the leaders and the activities.

Every day has a different theme. Yesterday it was LGBT+. I noticed the flags and facepaint when I dropped them off.

Dc told me last night that they had learned about every letter, what each one meant, including that you may not be the sex that you look like, how people were different and should change if they wanted to, and we should love and respect everyone, etc etc etc.

AIBU that this is not an appropriate theme for the setting?

Totally agree with @bowlofbabelfish: you can't change sex. Presumably at your child's Summer Camp, they were trying to present a simplified view of LGBT for age appropriate understanding, aimed at acceptance and tolerance.
*
But the problem is that these current popularised & simplified teachings on trans confuse sex and gender.*

I think you're right, on both counts.

Wichita

It's a thread about how uneasy the OP is about her children being told that people can change their sex.

I agree with her.

I think that a prepared session run by youths at a summer camp should be open to scrutiny by parents.

*Threads elsewhere die when you lot pile in, and it's really fucking tiresome.

Take your intolerance back to FWR it's not welcome on AIBU. You've got your corner of the mn playground locked down. Please leave the rest of it open to being trans inclusive in tone.*

This thread has not died as a result of conflicting viewpoints being expressed.

You, Witchita, strike me as the intolerant person here. While I don't agree with the brainwashing! TRA-funded! posts, posters like Bowlofbabelfish make sensible and valuable contributions to the thread.

Conflicting viewpoints are welcome. Nastiness is not.

talking about trans to children is not ok

Talking about trans to children is absolutely OK.

Giving children inaccurate and biased information about trans - that you can change sex - is not OK.

Confusing sex - biological reality - with gender - socially & historically constructed roles which change across time & culture, and have no basis in biological necessity, as well as being highly oppressive to women, gays & lesbians, and "feminine" men - is not OK.

I had to laugh at the comment about posters with certain viewpoints not being welcome on AIBU. The whole point of AIBU is for people to give different viewpoints, to say if they agree or disagree.

When teachers/people involved with young people talk about sex, sexuality etc they get (or should get) specific training and be aware of safeguarding.

Friends of mine who have run sessions like this (teachers, school nurses doing sex education etc) have all said to me that it’s very common afterwards for children to have questions, and comments which can raise concerns. Or to outright confide something which is a concern.

Hypothetical example: someone comes into school to do the excellent NSPCC ‘pants’ training which is all about boundaries and safety. Kid afterwards approaches nurse alone and says something like ‘is it ok if my dad/uncle touches me where my pants are.?’ Now the nurse needs to follow safeguarding rules - they cannot keep that disclosure confidential for the safety of the child. They now need to follow good safeguarding practice to ensure the correct guidelines are followed.

There are groups training schools who advocate confidential disclosure of a child disclosed they’re trans or gender questioning. ALL the safeguard frameworks say this is a route to disaster. It allows an unhealthy confidence to build up - imagine if a predator (and again, I must state that I am NOT talking about anyone trans, I am talking about the people who can and do put themselves into such positions to access children) is receiving that disclosure... what happens now? No safeguarding guidelines are followed. The child is vulnerable. Perhaps that predator starts to tell them that it’s Ok, that no their parents don’t understand but they do.

Now you’ve got unaware parents, parental alienation and potentially grooming.

This is NOT about tolerance for LGB, it’s NOT about tolerance for people with gender dysphoria (both of which should be a given.) it’s about keeping children safe.

We have had far, far too many cases where children have been harmed because people didn’t follow the rules. child safety overrules anyone’s feeling. The school education materials and position of some transgender lobby groups actively contradicts safeguarding.

Now regardless of what anyone’s motives are, we cannot and must not throw safeguarding out. We just can’t.

Bowlofbabelfish - interested in the safeguarding issues. Please could you point me in the direction of the trans groups training schools that advocate confidential disclosure?

So I would be asking:

What content was taught?
Who provided the materials for the content that was taught?
Who was teaching it? What’s their background/affiliation?

And I’d check that good safeguarding practice was followed.

All this would allow me to field follow up questions from my kids appropriately and follow up with the camp on anything I felt was inappropriate.

I honestly don’t care if anyone thinks that’s overkill. I’ve seen what happens when safeguarding is broken and it’s not good.

From the Allsorts Toolkit for Schools, as promoted by the Transgender charity Mermiads:

School staff should not disclose information that may reveal a pupil or student’s transgender status or gender nonconforming presentation to others, including parents, carers and other members of the school community unless legally required to do so or because the child or young person has asked them to do so.

Sorry, that was for you Anchovies12

Thanks - in schools for example though are we not "legally required to do so" if it is a potential safeguarding issue? And if it isn't then is there an issue with it being confidential?

Sorry if I'm being dim - I am genuinely trying to educate myself!

I'm all for approrpiate education to ensure children and young people grow up with a wide range of options and beliefs. What I am not in agreement with is excluding the parents from the prior knowledge of what is being taught, or shared (at school or camp, or any other venue). Since when did parents' rights in terms of sharing sensitive issues fly out of the window?

I'm with @Bowlofbabelfish here - knowledge of what they are being taught or made aware of is key, and the most important thing is the safeguarding issue - crucial.

And no - I'm no 'anti' anything at all.

anchovies they are called mermaids.

There is also an issue with them heavily promoting incorrect suicide statistics against the advice of the Samaritans (it’s known that media reporting can lead to copycat events so this is HIGHLY irresponsible.) They also advocate for children to be given puberty blockers very young (the NHS thankfully disagrees.)

There is a group called transgender trend who have a far more reasonable training pack based on a ‘watch, wait and support’ model.

Bizzylizzyloo

It used to be illegal to talk about homosexuality in schools and we rightly condemned that as an evil practice which alienated vulnerable people.

You don't get to pick and choose just because this is the limit of your tolerance. If you think it's abominable to sweep the existence of gays and lesbians under the carpet and pretend they don't exist, you can't then argue for different rules for trangender people.

Trans people exist, kids should learn about it, what exactly is the issue?!
because men cannot be women and we women cannot be men they can pretend but that is is is damaging to tell children otherwise and also a lie

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

A good starter thread, should anyone wish to pop over to feminism chat and say hello.

Contrary to popular belief we are not all man hating cauldron stirring whateverophobes, but we are fairly passionate about women’s rights and child safeguarding. issues that affect women and children basically.

Traffic to mumsnet via the FWR boards has increased 12 fold since 2016. Interesting eh?

But they weren’t discussing sex though we’re they, just love. Why do parents need informing if that?

The issue is really Anchovies12 that the advice in the pack, which is written as CPD for school staff, conflicts so wildly with all other safeguarding advice.

I would worry that in any school that has done the Allsorts training staff might think that they can and should keep disclosures from transgender students from parents and other staff.

Why do parents need informing if that?

Because parental openness for ALL pastoral issues is a key tenet of safeguarding. Pastoral staff are on the front line of keeping children safe.

The premise that random teens/twentysomethings in a working context can discuss personal matters like this with other people's DCs without their prior knowledge or consent is ridiculous, at the very least it should be discussed first, training and safeguarding covered, and be opt-in.

There are sound reasons we bother to do any of that stuff and have trained professionals handle it, and why eg some random walking up to your kid in the shops to discuss sexual orientation would be considered a bit off.

Have a look at the allsorts training stuff. It’s really eye opening. Not in a good way.

Witchita
How dare you try and speak for others here on aibu!
You may want to shut people up for speaking facts and contributing ON A PUBLIC FORUM, but it's clear that the majority welcome contributions from babel and others about this very important issue.
Tell you what, if you don't like it and can't handle a grown up discussion why don't you go elsewhere rather than telling others to go away.
Absolutely outrageous!!

But you don’t know how it was discussed. Are you saying any discussion re being gay or transgender needs parental permission? If so, why? Isn’t that quite a dangerous view?
Re blockers etc. I’ve just read This is How it Always Is by Laurie Frenkel who has a trans child herself. It’s a novel but it illustrates how difficult the whole situation is and how hard to know the best course of action for families. Not having a trans child myself it really opened my eyes to how complex and hard it is for trans kids and their families.Some little boys want to change into girls and some girls want to change into boys. Childhood can be hard. The more kids who understand this the better, ditto being gay.

I actually think there needs to be more LGBT material in schools and elsewhere for children. It might help to cut the horrendously high level of bullying LGBT kids suffer.

GIRES's advice to schools says that a child who comes out as transgender must immediately have access to toilets and changing rooms of their chosen gender. Any children who don't want to share will have to use unisex facilities. So any girls who object to having a naked boy in the communal changing room is a nasty bigot who must be cast out

www.gires.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Transition-of-Pupil-in-School.pdf

If this isn't a safeguarding issue, I don't know what is

Re: blockers.

I’m sure children questioning gender identity have it tough. Blockers however are powerful drugs, bring used off label for something there’s no ethical justification for.

When adults take these drugs for intractable endometriosis for example they are restricted to one course for a short period. Even then adults often find the side effects intolerable - even when they are taking them for a serious indication like prostate cancer. There are women on here whose health has been wrecked by a three month course of them.

The FDA is investigating Lupron because of the number of side effect reports it’s had (triptorelin is more prescribed here, but it’s the same class of drug with a similar side effect profile and the same mechanism of action.)

These blockers are not a harmless pause button. They have irreversible effects on many systems - the brain (8-10 point drop in IQ, cognitive damage) joints, bones, metabolism etc. Correct puberty is essential for physical and mental development.

They should not be given to physically healthy children. The only indication in children they are licenced for is central precocious puberty. To be honest if a child of mine had CPP I’d even then think very hard about whether I’d give permission to use these drugs - and that’s an informed personal opinion (I’m a scientist with a human development/genetics background who now works in drug development, safety and trials.) they are actively contraindicated in any person who has a mental health issue like depression or anxiety.

It’s very easy to just see children trotted out on TV / media who are trans and be sympathetic. No one is going to grill a kid on the ethics of prescribing blockers on live TV because you’d look like a monster. But think hard about why these children are being pushed forward - at the same time as there’s a big push to medicalise children at ever younger ages, there’s a move to completely demedicalise adult treatment so that anyone who says they are female is. I find that very odd personally.