Warning - emotive topic/end of life care

[Rachyabbadabbadoo]

So in the news today it is now accepted that food and water can be withheld in the case of people in a long term vegetive state to bring about death sooner without legal repercussions.

If I had a very sick pet, and told people that as there was no chance of it getting better I was going to stop feeding/watering it, I'm sure the reaction would be absolute horror - a cruel thing to do. And yet with humans this is humane? A similar thing was used on my grandad towards the end of his life, and it seemed beyond cruel, and traumatic for all concerned. Why do we do this? Surely medicine could be used to bring a swifter and kinder end to someone's life in these circumstances?

I 100% agree with you. It is basically euthanasia, only much less humane, causing suffering on a drawn-out timescale. Either we should have euthanasia, with a properly thought-out set of safeguards, or not. Not this get-round-the-law stuff that causes such suffering.

Yep medicine should be used instead. A lot of what I do involves end of life care and to not feed or give them water is torture.

It's disgusting imo I wouldn't let any member of my family starve or dehydrate under any circumstance. The rules are wrong regarding end of life care. No body should suffer

The suggestion is that in a permenant vegetative state they cannot suffer from the withdrawal of food or water, though I agree active euthanasia would be preferable that is not yet a matter the country is ready to debate.

I agree. Medicine should be used. It’s terrible

I think it can be a good thing, my uncle had several severe strokes and was in a vegetative state for over three years; we wanted him to be allowed to slip away, as I'm sure he would have wanted, but his wife insisted that he was kept alive by a feeding tube in his stomach. He also had severe arthritis and it was the not knowing if he was in pain and unable to express it that tormented us. It was cruel keeping him alive by medical intervention imo.

not yet a matter the country is ready to debate

For years polls have shown a significant public majority in favour. It is parliament which repeatedly rejects it.

To be honest, by that point, most people are really struggling to take on adequate nutrition and fluids. In fact they aren't. The argument is, should they have intravenous fluids and a PEG it nasal gastric tube fitted (both of which can cause much distress) or should they stop being forced to eat and drink.

It isn't about starving or dehydrating people who are asking for good and drink (and I mean asking in the very very loosest of senses).

Water and food is the way end of life care is practiced, people just slip away. Its been like that for centuries. It's really very peaceful.

My dad had to refuse antibiotics and die from pneumonia as his only way out of dying the horrible death of a brain tumor ever increasing in size inside his skull. I'm glad he went down that route, and as a family we all supported it, but surely he should have other better options, like a cocktail of drugs that he could have taken at a point he decided on.

So (and i don't know the correct terminology) is this because the law is attempting to make a distinction between hastening death by withdrawing (a thing) rather than hastening death by administering (a thing)?

My DM stopped eating and drinking in the two weeks before she died. We were assured that this was part of the process, and she certainly seemed comfortable.

Still think it would be kinder to 'administer a thing' Laiste (inappropriate ) than let anyone suffer.

Once someone is in a vegetative state they are not aware of suffering so no its not humane. Its also not drawn out. Once withdrawn the process of slipping away is actually pretty fast. Laws for the right to a dignified death might finally move forward now.

Not inhumane i mean.

Usually these people are on high dose medications like morphene if theres any suggestion of discomfort so they really are unaware.

I think this change in the law shows just how far away, we are as a country to having euthanasia comparably to Switzerland or Scandinavian countries. The fact that it has until now had to go to court to allow a "brain dead" person to stop being given food, is crazy. We have a long long way to go before medical ethics catch up with medical science and other countries.

Martha, is someone is in a vegetative state and not aware of suffering why do they need to be on morphine. How long does it take for someone to die if they are not given food or water.

At the very end you can ask for extra morphine. But only at the end where the options are die or die.

I hope the laws do change. My grandads death was terribly drawn out over many many days. I remember thinking he had an obstruction in his mouth, but it was his tongue that had turned almost black through dehydration (at least I guess that's why it looked that way). He was such a proud strong man from a farming background, very in tune with nature, with strong views on making hard but kind decisions when caring for his animals and what was best. I think we all felt we failed him.

They won't just remove fluids and nutrition without providing drugs to mitigate pain and discomfort.

My Gran refused food and water at the end (cancer). She would turn her head away when they tried to give fluids and even mouthcare. She was ready to go. She was given drugs to keep her out of pain and comfortable, she slipped away peacefully.

The medical professionals are well aware that the dying process can be distressing and painful even to those who are not conscious. They already prescribe drugs to help with this routinely in end of life care.

Death is a natural process, animals often take themselves away and refuse food and water often for days before dying. If all involved in their care are in agreement not to keep a loved one/patient alive by artificial means then who are we to decide that the natural process of dying should be witheld from that individual.

Holey confirmed brain dead people dont suffer. But people like charlie guard and alfie evans whos brain disintergrate and are believed to be semi vegatative will be put on morphene in case of suffering because it cant be confirmed one way or another. Hope that made sense.

This country is very behind but i do agree they should make a pain free medication to withdraw life. I also believe assisted dying should be legal.

I don't see why there is a distinction between doctors deliberately doing something they know will speed up the death of a dying person and... doctors deliberately doing something they know will speed up the death of a dying person. Why is the cruel one legal and the kind one immoral madness that can never be allowed when the only difference is that one is cruel and one is kind?

123bananas don't lean on animals to justify this. Mercy killings are completely natural too, so really who are you, who is anyone to decide it's a crime?

They're not talking about refusing food/drink to someone actively dying(cancer or old age) but still conscious, that used to be called the Liverpool pathway that is now no longer used as its barbaric, this new ruling is for people who would naturally slip away as they cannot recover from their injury or disease, who only carry on living due to force feeding via tubes. As long as there is no suffering I think it's a step in the right direction to full euthanasia.

Late last year my DF became very ill with sepsis originating from a tooth abscess.
We were informed not asked that DF was being put on the end of life path, all food and fluids were withdrawn. DF didn't want to die - he wasn't ready.
I will never forget the my little sister's absolute distress and DF was moved from Coronary Care to a medical ward.
A few days later DF was moved to a nursing home for palliative care. Palliative to whom? Certainly not us or DF, we had to fight every step of the way for him to be given the anti-anxiety and pain relief he had been written up for.

It took DF over six weeks to die whilst denied food, fluids and adequate pain relief.
It was fucking brutal and has affected DSis and I for the rest of our lives.
Less than eight weeks later we sat with our DSF as he was placed on the end of life pathway, fortunately he only survived 48 hours.
Our DM is now heading that way.
Euthanasia already exists in the NHS, the Liverpool Pathway is still practised in our hospitals etc, it just has a different name.
We need to stop being cowards, our terminally ill deserve better treatment than being starved and dehydrated to death.
Sorry, I will step off my soapbox.

Rachy can really empathise with the sense of failure, it makes you feel so helpless