To think that 'Lolita' is an amazing literary masterpiece?

[Electrascoffee]

I have never wanted to read this book until now, having seen the film which, imo has done the book a great disservice.

Having read it now I think the narrative is exquisite. The book is in no way suggesting that paedophilia is acceptable or normal - quite the opposite in fact. Humbert is clearly a monster - the author leaves us in no doubt about that.

My friend said it's 'a pervy book' but he's never read it! The film, I feel tried to present Humbert in a more sympathetic light which is very annoying.

In my opinion it's a masterpiece that was way ahead of its time. And challenges views about misogyny, victim blaming culture in our society wrt sex crimes.

JacquesHammer

It is an idiotic point. Can you stop it too, please.

Interesting username OP.

It is an idiotic point. Can you stop it too, please

I’m afraid I don’t agree and as such given it’s a topic of discussion rather than trying to police an Internet forum, you could take the onus upon yourself to leave a conversation you find distressing.

JacquesHammer

No, I won't leave the discussion. Continuing to insist that I must be attracted to children because I find Nabokov's portrayal of one 'convincing' is fucking cretinous, when I have explained what I mean by the word.

I have reported your post.

You said earlier That is an opinion to which I am fully entitled

That therefore does extrapolate out to others’ opinions on the thread whether you agree or not.

Margaret’s point was interesting and something I hadn’t considered before.

*Continuing to insist that I must be attracted to children because I find Nabokov's portrayal of one 'convincing' is fucking cretinous, when I have explained what I mean by the word.

I have reported your post*

I’m not insisting anything. Margaret made a point I found interesting.

Do you seriously think my post was report worthy?

JacquesHammer

And your opinion is that I am or might be a paedophile? Genuinely?

I am lost for words. You disgust me. How can you speak to total strangers like that?

It's not an idiotic point.

A portrayal can be 'convincing' because of its development, detail, specificity etc. I have read of many places, events and emotions I have never experienced, but when someone writes particularly well, I believe in their portrayal. That is what I mean by convincing, amd it is a perfectly valid literary judgement, absent my personal experience of being attracted to children.

Yes, this is perfectly fair as a literary judgement, but it undermines your earlier, non-literary judgement that Nabokov could not have written so well from the point of view of a paedophile without experiencing sexual desires towards children himself. If you can as a reader enter into the ways in which Nabokov portrays the specificity of Humbert's desire etc, then surely it's not a leap t understand that a good writer can enter into the inner life of a character and imagine those specific details and flesh them out, however foreign and abhorrent?

We don't of course know whether VN had paedophilic desires he never acted on, in the same way we can't police anyone's unspoken and unacted-on thoughts. But despite evidence of quite a few affairs, including one with one of his undergraduate students, and a long and apparently happy marriage, there's no evidence at all VN was a paedophile.

JacquesHammer

Obviously, or I wouldn't have reported it. I asked you to stop making that particular insinuation and you didn't.

And your opinion is that I am or might be a paedophile? Genuinely?

No. I said it was an interesting point I hadn’t considered.

My post said “interesting point”. If you take that as an insinuation that is YOUR problem.

Maybe not overreacting would help?

I’m loving the idea you’ve reported

“Really interesting point”.

Have you reported the other posters who said he same?

CountessCon

No, it doesn't, Countess. If someone writes what I would consider to be a 'convincing' depiction of what it feels like to be in space, I don't believe I need to have been in space myself to make the judgement that they write with sufficient authority and specificity to be 'convincing'. On the other hand, I do believe they would need to know a lot about being in space to write with such authority and specificity.

And I have not said couldn't. I have said I think it more likely than not.

JacquesHammer

I have asked you to stop. You are choosing to carry on and now accusing me of 'over-reacting' as if you aren't doing it.

I suspect you are enjoying your nasty little activity.

JacquesHammer

I have reported you, because I asked you to stop it and you wouldn't.

I suspect you are enjoying your nasty little activity

I have never met anyone who can suggest an interesting literary discussion is nasty

You don’t get to ask people to stop having that discussion. By all means hide the post. That what I do when I don’t like the contents.

JacquesHammer

Of course I get to ask. What's to stop someone asking? You are choosing to continue.

I have reported you, because I asked you to stop it and you wouldn't

Remember your post when you suggested someone should get a grip? Good advice.

Leaving aside the nonsensical derailment, can anyone comment whether Pale Fire is worth reading?

I’ve toyed with it on and off but never feel grabbed.

Any thoughts?

Yes, it absolutely is - it's magnificent. My favourite novel of his (if it's a novel).

Yes, it absolutely is - it's magnificent. My favourite novel of his (if it's a novel)

Thank you. I shall give it another whirl. I found the structure didn’t grab me but shall power on through!

I have never met anyone who can suggest an interesting literary discussion is nasty

A family member of mine teaches Bataille's The Story of the Eye to students - I think that would probably qualify for some people...

I think that would probably qualify for some people..

I should imagine so! Although more the content that being deliberately nasty TO someone I suspect. Another well written if disturbing work though!

Yes, fair point. On the other hand a friend was involved in the Bronte Society for many years and that was definitely a literary discussion that got nasty (though maybe not about the literature itself - I've never really got out of her what the Bronte Soc wars were all about, or her role in them).

@FatherBuzzCagney

Was it a recent kerfuffle?

I found I was horrified and revolted when reading it. The only other books I can think of which hit me in the same visceral way (although different emotions) were Crime and Punishment and The Grapes of Wrath. So yes I’d call it a classic but I definitely didn’t enjoy reading it and how it left me feeling.