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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Refused Divorce WTF

224 replies

DroningOn · 25/07/2018 10:52

Tini Owens loses Supreme Court divorce fight - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-44949856

Don't understand how a husband could hold his wife to an unhappy marriage when she wants a divorce so much she's willing to go all the way to the Supreme Court.

Is it a divorce settlement issue or something?

OP posts:
SomeonesRealName · 25/07/2018 14:19

(1) We don’t hold that double standard and (2) We are not ‘screeching’ we are forcefully making a case that we feel strongly about.

LeahJack · 25/07/2018 14:21

Stirner does have a bit of a point though. You can’t have different laws for different sexes.

So although a law change would help women such as Tini (who are really a very small minority) it would also give divorce on demand to men too, and there are far more occasions where women’s security and financial stability would be undermined by men having divorce on demand than there are women like Tini in this situation.

It really is one of those occasions where you have to think it through carefully and be sure it doesn’t have undesirable side effects.

Yes, Tini seems to be in a pretty unpleasant predicament, but I don’t think getting people like her out of her marriage early is worth the the fallout for other women who might find themselves in a couple on Monday, then divorced and holding the babies on Friday while their ex starts a new life with the OW.

BlueBug45 · 25/07/2018 14:21

@LeahJack I'm not missing the point.

Divorce isn't a one step process.

The decree nisi can be delayed until a financial settlement is agreed by both parties regardless of what the grounds of divorce are. Rich couples, in the worse cases, can spend years going back and forward to the court because they can't agree on their financial settlement.

mostdays · 25/07/2018 14:24

Obvious to who, Stirner?

montenuit · 25/07/2018 14:24

Can't she just live apart from him til the 5 years is up?

Personally i think it helps a lot of low earning women whose husbands decide to go off with someone else - unless the wife agrees to the divorce (usually sweetened with a good settlement) he has to wait 5 years

Topseyt · 25/07/2018 14:26

I think this is ridiculous.

I see no reason why no fault divorce could not be available after two years, with allowances being made for the split of the marital assets, if that was not yet completed.

Five years is too long to make people wait, especially those who are trying to extricate themselves from abusive relationships.

SummerGems · 25/07/2018 14:27

I do think the responses on here would be a lot different if it was a woman being sued for divorce.

For those saying that someone should just be able to divorce no fault after any time, can you imagine how that would work in practice? It would be used as a tool to further abuse a partner in the event he e.g. wanted out of the marriage, and in fact I can imagine that you would even end up with situations where the man (or woman, but let’s go with man for the purposes of this thread,) would apply for divorce and the woman would be none the wiser that the marriage was even in trouble until she was told that they were now divorced and she had to vacate the house, with no time to work out a settlement or anything to that level....

On the face of it users are saying that it’s unreasonable because he is clearly controlling. Yet atually it appears that she is the controlling one who shagged around during the marriage and now he has taken back control. Serves her right IMO.

montenuit · 25/07/2018 14:30

this women has to stay in a loveless marriage for another 2 years, before she can get divorced

no one's saying she can't leave him
no one's saying she has to share his bed every night

Stirner · 25/07/2018 14:30

@SomeonesRealName - if no fault divorce became a thing and a posters husband took advantage of it you'd all be on here demanding he be put in the stocks.

LeahJack · 25/07/2018 14:31

Yes, you are entirely missing the point.

Lower earners in a relationship usually have just one bargaining chip and that is time.

The poorer partner can stop the decree nisi being even issued if they defend the divorce.

Regardless of what happens in cases where both partners agree to divorce and the financials are worked out later, that doesn’t change the fact that for many women threatening to defend the divorce is often the only bargaining chip they have.

MingeUterusMingeMingeYoni · 25/07/2018 14:32

So you are saying that legal teams are advising people to fill their applications with bull shit?

No. She's not saying that at all.

When you fill out a divorce petition for unreasonable behaviour, you have to give examples. These examples need to be chosen, so unless you literally only have like three (and frankly, DH and I could both come up with plenty more than that and we're very happily married) that means leaving some out. It's not more or less correct to use milder ones than worse ones, or vice versa. There is nothing in English divorce law to oblige a petitioner to choose the worst examples.

And so in order to try and keep things as civilised as possible, and to maximise the chances of the other spouse not contesting, the legal profession moved towards advising petitioners to try and keep things mild where possible (not always of course but general trend). I was literally told in the late noughties to avoid being combative. I remember being told to rewrite a petition by my supervisor, that Resolution principles required us to be as conciliatory as possible.

And these mild petitions were granted by the courts. To some extent it was the profession and the courts trying to make a minimal fault divorce option possible in the absence of the law making provision for no fault when the rules on separation aren't met. It was, in my view, a pretty good thing. Nobody benefits from unnecessary mud slinging.

It's important this is spelled out because so many people are assuming her lawyers are at fault here. They may have been of course, it's possible to write a bit more than they did whilst still not mudslinging, but the general approach they advised was what's been pretty standard in recent years. They may have got the execution of it a bit wrong.

BlueBug45 · 25/07/2018 14:36

@SummerGems divorce in England and Wales isn't a one step process regardless of the grounds of divorce.

Once you have submitted your petition you have to be able to prove that it is highly likely the other party has received the papers. This is why you hear of people serving them at their partner's workplace.

And as I mentioned in a previous post - your decree nisi can be delayed if you refuse to sort out a financial settlement.

Sunnymeg · 25/07/2018 14:42

My Aunt who was a devout Catholic made my Uncle. wait for seven years, which was the length of time in those days ,as her religious beliefs meant that she did not believe in divorce. After being apart for ten years, my Uncle went back to her. She refused to remarry him, as she never agreed with or accepted the divorce and in her eyes they had always been married. My Aunt died a few years later, without making a will and inherited nothing. Everything passed to the children. My Aunt would have been devastated if she had known.

MingeUterusMingeMingeYoni · 25/07/2018 14:42

Those who are opposed to no fault, how would you feel about reducing the time periods instead? At the moment it's 2 years separation with consent and 5 years without. I think we could make significant change by swapping that to 1 year and 3 years and help a lot of people, without taking what some people would regard as a nuclear step of introducing total no fault.

I'd also point out that couples who are on decent terms but just want a full split sometimes pretty much connive together to get an earlier divorce. It's not unknown for one to petition for adultery and the other agree, whether this has taken place or not, or for them to agree on an unreasonable behaviour petition before submitting even if they don't think either has been particularly unreasonable. I don't think it's a good thing for people to have to choose between being able to move on with their lives as they wish and lying to courts. And you're very naïve if you think this doesn't happen.

dollybird · 25/07/2018 14:57

I haven't RTFT but I got divorced nearly twenty years ago and although it was with consent, we were divorced well within two years (I know as I got re-married two years after we split up - I met my DH after splitting up with Ex-H). The grounds were irreconcilable differences to avoid any mud slinging (he left me for another woman) and having to prove anything - is this no longer an option?

BlueBug45 · 25/07/2018 15:00

@LeahJack

You are presuming that if divorce is no fault then due process will be abandoned.

It won't be because the law will recognise marital assets need to be split up. All that would happen is that judges would haven't to look at the details of divorce petitions and instead concentrate fully on financial orders (consent orders).

I actually know people of both sexes who had to go in front of a judge even, though they both consented to the divorce, to get a ruling on how the marital assets were split.

LeahJack · 25/07/2018 15:00

minge, I don’t think there should be any waiting period for consent, the five years is okay for me.

Put it this way, if a man runs off with another woman who is keen to marry and have her own children, it would concentrate the mind of the errant husband (and OW) much more if they were looking at a five year wait than a three year.

LeahJack · 25/07/2018 15:13

You’re still missing the point bug.

Having the bargaining chip of holding out and defending the divorce (which will also be extremely costly for both parties) can secure a decent settlement early and out of court without any need for judges to decide on it and may well bring the women a much more favourable settlement than that which they’d get in a court.

After all, most people are sensible enough to realise chucking your ex a few thousands pounds to go away quickly is far more preferable than shelling out double the amount to lawyers.

Shortstuff08 · 25/07/2018 15:15

lawyers advise you to put mild examples of unreasonable behaviour down as if you don't the divorce is more likely to be contested as the other spouse will get hostile, and so the divorce petition won't be granted

So bull shit then? This woman, who was apparently told to put mild versions down was the told that her reasons were flimsy and exaggerated.....so she made them a mild version which still sounded ridiculous and had no basis.

Again she was either advised wrong or decided to ignore the advice given. Either her or her legal team need to hold responsibility. She can't have been advised correctly and followed the advice and still be in this situation. Especially if people are advised to put utter bollocks in their petition.

Legally, her husband as no obligation to divorce. Especially if he feels she is lying (which it appeared the judge agreed with), many women don't want to proceed with divorce if it's all lies.

Personally, I think the 5 year thing is bollocks and should go. 2 years with no ability to contest is enough, imo.

My point is, that it's unlikely she is a poor victim here. She has made poor choices or had poor advice, Throughout the whole situation.

OrangeMarshmellows · 25/07/2018 15:16

@bluebug45
Exactly! No one is suggesting they just get a divorce without the other person knowing and run off into the night. Just that you shouldn't have to state any reasons beyond 'no longer wish to be married' in order to get one.
You would still have to agree on what happens with any marital assets, he/she can't now just run off with them, there are still laws in place!!

@leahjack To force someone to wait 5 years to remarry out of spite is ridiculous.

Shortstuff08 · 25/07/2018 15:20

I don’t think there should be any waiting period for consent, the five years is okay for me

How many times have you been divorced? The 5 year rule has impacted you and you are ok with it?

I left abusive dh over a year ago. He won't consent. I have met some one else and can't move on with him, for another 4 years? Fuck that. If the plan holds, dp will move in anyway. We will probably have a child. I have changed my name by deed poll.

Not a fucking chance will it stop me living my life. And it's not going to stop a cheating bastard so moving on. They will just do what I plan to do.

MingeUterusMingeMingeYoni · 25/07/2018 15:20

Again she was either advised wrong or decided to ignore the advice given. Either her or her legal team need to hold responsibility. She can't have been advised correctly and followed the advice and still be in this situation. Especially if people are advised to put utter bollocks in their petition.

It has been explained a couple of times now why this isn't necessarily the case at all.

StepCatsmother · 25/07/2018 15:22

Dollybird the only ground for divorce in England is that the marriage has irretrievably broken down.

Things like adultery, unreasonable behaviour & separation are how you prove the breakdown of the marriage. I don't think we use the phrase irreconcilable differences.

Shortstuff08 · 25/07/2018 15:23

It has been explained a couple of times now why this isn't necessarily the case at all

And it's still doesn't make sense.

If she was advised to put in a milder version of events and the judge still thought it was exaggerated, she clearly didn't follow the advice or got shit advice.

If she did make it up, as the husband says she did. She either didn't follow the advice or was given shit advice.

Caran07 · 25/07/2018 15:27

I'm one of those women that had a no fault divorce in the US. He decided he wanted to be with someone else and nothing else mattered. Not the decade I had put into our relationship, into a relationship with his family, my wasted years of fertility, wasted job opportunities to support him.

I'd still rather this type of divorce were available.