AIBU about these religious nutters?

[PatriarchyPersonified]

So I'll admit immediately that I am a pretty active atheist, which I generally restrict to debates/discussions online. I have engaged with some people on this website about religion so many of you will know I have pretty firm views. Hence why I am testing the waters on here to see if people irl will be as bothered about this issue as I am.

So, for the first time I feel motivated irl to try and make people aware of something that is happening in my local town. (Small, market town in the south of England, pretty boring by all accounts but we like it).

My DD has recently come home from school having spoken to some classmates who are attending a (relatively) new church group in the area. They are very keen on recruiting from the school and encouraging the older children who attend to convince the younger ones to start going to their youth groups, summer sports events etc.

The issue with this is their beliefs are at the very extreme end of the Christian sphere, we are talking young earth creationism, biblical literalism etc. Some of the older children have openly challenged the schools biology teachers about evolution etc. They have apparently been encouraged to do so by their parents. The group are very insular and once in encourage members to not interact with non-members for any reason other than recruitment or challenging 'secularism'.

I'm not any kind of atheism activist, but this kind of stuff crosses a line for me. Religious belief and church attendance is one thing, but active recruitment of the young under the guise of 'summer activities' is quite another, especially with the emphasis being on scientific denialism and speaking in tongues etc. (All imported direct from the US, as I'm sure you already figured out, but it was confirmed for me when I researched their church online)

If you someone made you aware of this activity happening in your children's school, how would you feel?

@PatriarchyPersonified What you describe in your last post is basically the recruitment process of a cult. Definitely not just a bunch of harmless cranks. And the fact that they do it under the guise of summer camp/activities is completely dishonest.

To be clear, they don't hide the baseline religious nature of these camps/clubs etc, it's just not made clear how extreme they actually are.

YANBU.

There has been a large Scientology church built near us. They have all sort of recruitment events. Disney concerts, fun fetes, encouraging the public in. My Dsis said we should go for the children to have a fun time, I would not go near it or bring my DC.

That is a religion where they also prefer you to reject non members.

If it's kids talking to other kids and inviting them out then I think the school is right. It's not for them to police what activities students do out of school.

That said, I'm fairly chilled out about students being exposes to different religious beliefs in school and a reasonably liberal Christian but find these types of churches quite emotionally manipulative.

Have you ever read 'The abstinence teacher'? It's about a similar situation where a small town is being overtook by religious fanatics who won't allow sex education.

Sorry I don't have any advice, I would be telling your child she is not to attend any services but she can practice privately if she wishes and encourage her to really look into Christianity - many Christians are religious but believe in science. She's at a very impressionable age and you don't want to inadvertently push her to somewhere that is on the surface 'accepting'.

When you say the school isn't interested, who have you spoken to?

The school governors need to be made aware of it, apologies if you've already spoken to them. As pp said it does sound very like the recruiting processes used by cults.

You don't say how old the children are OP, I'm guessing senior school. Teenagers can be very vulnerable to this sort of stuff. It's not always just a case of just saying no as some pps are implying, which is why these sort of people use peer pressure to recruit among young people in this way.

Agree with pp who suggested getting local church ministers on board with this as well.

You are right to be very sceptical about any religious group that has a hard sell. Try to find out more about the activities and what the religious input is.

As I've said before, I'm an atheist, but we actively teach our children about the Bible and religion in general. We have several bibles in our house. An understanding of Christianity and the bible is critical to understanding western culture. I just have a real problem with proselytising. (Especially on this scale)

I havent spoken to the school myself, maybe I should do, but to be fair, I don't see what they can do. It's not organised recruitment, it's just being done by social pressure during break times. The only way to stop it would be to stop the kids from socialising.

It's secondary school btw. DD is 12 but it appears from what she has told me to be the Y10-Y11 who are the main peer group involved.

I don't like what's going on, but I think you have to be careful, you can't stop the older children talking about their "church" to the younger ones and if parents start tongan the children from going, it could make them want to go even more, possible sneaking around behind parents backs.

To ban not tongan.

The school have said its nothing to do with them as there is no official recruitment taking place, just children talking to other children on breaks etc.

How on earth do you suggest the school should police what children are talking to other children about?! And indeed why shouldn't children talk to other children about the church they go to or even invite them to go with them? It's perfectly fine to say that your child won't be accepting that invitation, but you can't stop children from asking.

If you are seriously worried about this church, I think the only thing which is appropriate to do is make sure parents are aware of it, e.g. by sending a website link around, so they can make their own choices about whether they're okay with their kids going to things there. But your reaction strikes me as massively over the top.

Bridgetreilly I'm not sure being concerned that children are being convinced that evolution is a 'wicked lie' and that Noah's Ark actually happened (another cracker they have been pushing out) is going 'over the top'.

Denial of science is a slippery slope, and once it's started, it keeps people in ignorance and fear, suspicious of the outside world. When you are in a community like that, you are very easy to control.

I think the school are copping out here. They are right that they themselves are not initiating all this; but they cannot duck their responsibilities for what is happening in the playground. They have to deal with bullying in that setting and could not claim it was nothing to do with them. What the children do/say to other children is something they need to be keeping an eye on.

I would complain vociferously to the governors - I see this as a safeguarding issue - the children need to be safeguarded from indoctrination. Mobilise other parents who have concerns and write to the governors. They need to put a stop to this.

now that you've clarified it isn't mis-selling, I'm not sure what you can do

I'm an atheist and I think schools should be secular; I find it shocking they aren't.

but if this one isn't pretending to be, then leaflets etc can't be avoided and you can't ask one religious group to keep their views under wraps while others are allowed to talk freely about theirs.

another thought - you could have a child who says "My parents wouldn't vaccinate me because xyz" - wouldn't come under religious views but might also influence another child in a way you don't like.

I just don't see how it can be avoided I'm afraid.

Sounds like a good educational opportunity for robust debate. Not sure what’s upsetting about that.

But this isn't bullying.
This is students telling other students about things to attend out of school.

E.g. I have no power as a teacher to get involved in students deciding to meet up and engage in risk taking activities on a weekend. I have no power to stop 16 year olds going to parties and being peer pressured into sex and smoking. I can have discussions in PSHE about risk taking behaviours, I can fill in safeguarding concerns if I havr concerns about a child.

Same with these groups. I have no power to tell students they can't talk about a perfectly legal group, nor police who they meet up with out or school. I can promote an ethos of tolerance and debate. I can keep an eye on students at risk of radicalisation and complete relevant referals.

We can't police people discussing things because they have different views to us. I believe in evolution. I wouldn't be weighing in on a students sharing their beliefs in a 6 day creation.

The school have said its nothing to do with them as there is no official recruitment taking place, just children talking to other children on breaks etc.

And if they were going to a crack den?

Or learning to build bombs?

This should be on the school's radar.

I've been a Christian my whole life and have seen most denominations in action, and I have to say this militant evangelistic type of thing gives me the heebie jeebies. They're very clever at drawing people in under the guise of something else...eg free childcare for an afternoon at one of these summer events. Agree that it's impossible for the school to police take-up of this, but are the other parents aware?

There could be mileage in engaging with a few local groups and making them aware. Youth Workers often know (we have one in school but not every school does) and they might be worth mentioning it to. Also, local more mainstream churches who will not like the fact that it suggests bad things about Christianity. It absolutely is a safeguarding concern if your own child is targeted, or if you get hold of any materials. Also, teachers will already be challenging it, especially in Science and RE.

Get a journalist onto it so people get an insight into what it's really about? Post on a local social media page? Could someone set up a competing activity nearby, such as the town council, the more "mainstream" church, sports centre or a professional holiday activity scheme? Go to a meeting yourself and do a write-up for the local magazine about how it wasn't what you thought was being promoted?

It sounds like spreading information and knowledge about what this is all about is the key here.

I would have thought the school should be all over this. Aren't they suppose to report children they suspect are being turned into extremists to the police for the Prevent program?

I bet if the kids were talking about taking drugs or abusing girls then they would be taking action. Its not a matter of policing, its a matter of educating. Definitely take it further, we dont just sit by and allow children to be indoctrinated into cults.

This is a cult and this is recruitment. I would be mightily aggrieved at finding such brainwashing taking place in a school. Creationist ideas should not be indulged and given credence equal to scientific fact. These people hold disgusting views regarding homosexuals, other races, other beliefs. Do what you can to prevent it if you can.

They sound awful (and it reminds me of the Scientology summer fetes which did not reveal they were scientology).

The problem is the beliefs of the group more than that they invited someone along. My son went to a hindu thing with a friend and they have been to bar mitzvahs and holy communions and it's all quite non preaching celebtration type events and no one is trying to entice someone in. Even if it were the local C of E - say free tea on Wednesday if you go to boy's club and thetypical, kind of bribe many a group uses it's fine because the views are relatively mild. The problem here is the active trying to convert coupled with views most of us think are particularly bad.

I remember my Catholic mother deriding the evangelical lot in the 1970s with their silly speaking in tongues thing and believe everyone goes to hell unless they are "saved" and their constant pressure to make people convert. Although where we draw our lines and which religious groups we think are okay and which are not is never an easy issue.

I would be very worried about this. It’s basically cult recruiting. Targeting kids is doubly awful isn’t it?

For your own kids - I’m sure you already are but innocculate them as much as you can with critical thinking.

The school needs to be aware - definitely contact Prevent about this and ask for their advice.

I’d also be talking to other parents who may not be as aware of this.

And it IS the school’s problem if it’s happening on school time. They have a safeguarding duty towards their pupils. Use the word safeguarding. Talk to them, email them so you have a copy of all communications

Good luck.