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Teacher Reply Over Summer

353 replies

hairnightmare17 · 21/07/2018 11:08

Son is in secondary school.

We received school reports on Monday. One grade on there is different to what my son said he achieved. It was a terrible mark for an important subject and he would need work on it over the summer if it is correct, since he is going into year 11.

I tend to believe my son didn't get that mark but without a reply from the teachers I won't know for sure. I have queried it by email twice this week, no reply. Attempted to call, to no avail. School broke up yesterday.

Is it worth emailing again? Is it likely I would receive a response over the summer break.

OP posts:
Clavinova · 21/07/2018 21:06

A few examples:

The summer term runs from 1st May - 31st August. If a teacher resigns her post without a new job to go to she would be very foolish to give her leaving date as the 20th July (yesterday) because her pay would probably stop immediately. If she gives her leaving date as the 31st August - she will be paid up until that date as she is accruing new wages at a daily rate - even though the school is closed.

If a teacher takes strike action and misses a day of directed time - one of the 195 days - the school can only deduct 1/365th of her salary because every day is a potential working day - otherwise the school would be able to deduct much more than this amount e,g. 1/195th or 1/260th of her pay.

There are some complex rules concerning maternity leave/pay but a teacher returning from maternity leave can give her return date as the first day of the summer holidays (if she hasn't already had 52 weeks maternity leave) and still be paid during the holidays, even though she hasn't worked at all during term time. When a teacher returns a week or two before the holidays I assume that either her maternity leave has run out, she's returning early because she wants her full salary instead of just maternity pay, she'd like to get up to speed with the work/her colleagues ahead of September, get the keys to her classroom and say goodbye to colleagues who are leaving.

Support staff (TAs etc.) are not paid for the holidays because they do not have the same pay and conditions as teachers.

BoneyBackJefferson · 21/07/2018 21:10

Clavinova

Teachers are paid for 1265 hours/195 days.
We are required to do any work that is reasonable outside of those hours. But are not paid for it.

If we were to work as others do it would require an increase of wages amounting to 13 weeks.

Clavinova · 21/07/2018 21:12

We accept that work has to be done outside of our contracted 32.5 hours a week during term time

Quite a few of your colleagues seem very confused about this indeed. And a few more seem to think that staff meetings and parents evenings timetabled during directed time are unpaid as well.

Every day is a potential working day if it suits the teacher to work on that day.

Clavinova · 21/07/2018 21:18

We are required to do any work that is reasonable outside of those hours. But are not paid for it

Yes you are!
Undirected work is part of your contract and you are paid for it - but you are not directed a minimum (or maximum) number of hours that you have to do. And holiday pay is included in your daily rate of pay.

BoneyBackJefferson · 21/07/2018 21:23

Clavinova

Go read the published contract of teachers.

Go educate yourself it might be fun.

MaisyPops · 21/07/2018 21:24

So how can every day be a potential working day and also every holiday be paid holidays? It doesn't work both ways.

Our salary reflects the work we do beyond our directed time. I could choose to do excessive weeks during term time and nothing in the holiday. I could choose to work to 32.5 (or close as) in term time and work throughout my holidays. The amount of work I do is the same.

Clavinova · 21/07/2018 21:28

I wouldn't expect a teacher to reply to an email in the holidays either, but if I sent an email to a teacher 4 days before the school closed for the summer then I would expect a reply - bearing in mind that the teacher would probably have much less marking to do during her undirected time that week (especially in a secondary school) - and therefore potentially more time to answer parents' emails.

Clavinova · 21/07/2018 21:33

Go read the published contract of teachers
I just have!

And I've just read some discussions on the TES forum - my conclusion is that they agree with me over there (in the end).

MaisyPops · 21/07/2018 21:33

bearing in mind that the teacher would probably have much less marking to do during her undirected time that week (especially in a secondary school) - and therefore potentially more time to answer parents' emails.
And yet my final 2-3 weeks were more hectic than the previous half term. Multiple days out of school, trips, collapsed timetable days, pastoral things, meetings and actual teaching.

But sure, I'd have had loads of time free.

cantkeepawayforever · 21/07/2018 21:35

and therefore potentially more time to answer parents' emails.

I'm glad you qualified that with 'in secondary' - as in primary the last 2-3 weeks of the summer term are by far the busiest of the year 'behind the scenes', even if perhaps less overtly seen in direct 'teaching of rows of silent children in the classroom'

BlitheringIdiots · 21/07/2018 21:37

I would email. Our school officially closed for pupils on Friday but they have inset days Monday and Tuesday so assume as they at work they will check emails?

BoneyBackJefferson · 21/07/2018 21:37

Clavinova

In ten minutes thats some fast reading speed.

But no they don't all agree with you.

Those that read the contract know that it says paid for 1265 hours directed time, spread over 12 months with any reasonable work done outside of that time. (paraphrased)

But then your post of 21:28 shows exactly what you are.

mirialis · 21/07/2018 22:33

Is it really so crazy to expect someone who's about to clock off for 6 weeks to scan their outstanding emails, deal with any quick enquiries followed by a C&P message saying "I am now out of school until September and will pick up this issue then if you wish to discuss further" or just auto reply with a variation of the C&P message to anything that requires time/effort that cuts into paid/unpaid leave? Then the OP would have known "yes he got a 4 in the first/both exams and his grade was based on that and I will discuss this with you in September if needs be" or simply "I am now off duty and will discuss this with you in September if needs be".

Rosieposy4 · 21/07/2018 22:44

Clavinova
The only strikes that have taken place whilst I have been teaching have ( in 2 different schools in 2 different LA ) seen a deduction of 1/ 195 annual pay per day.

Clavinova · 21/07/2018 23:06

But then your post of 21:28 shows exactly what you are
Much better at research than you might think...

There have actually been several court cases discussing this matter, including a judgment from the Supreme Court last year - concerning teachers at a Sixth-Form College wanting the same 1/365th strike pay deductions as school teachers:
www.doyleclayton.co.uk/resources/recent-cases/supreme-court-finds-teachers-strike-were-deducted-too-much-pay/

"The Supreme Court disagreed and upheld the teachers’ appeal, deciding that annual salary accrues at an equal daily rate over the calendar year unless expressly provided otherwise. As there was nothing in the teachers’ contracts which stipulated apportionment other than on a calendar day basis, the Court of Appeal’s approach was wrong and the teachers’ claim succeeded. This means that there is now a clear authority that Sixth Form Colleges should deduct pay at a rate of 1/365th of a teacher’s salary for each day on strike, as is the case for school teachers governed by the Burgundy book"

Quote from the NUT in relation to strike pay deductions:

"School teachers can be directed by their employers to work for up to 195 days and 1265 hours per year but are also required to work as many additional hours as are necessary to discharge their responsibilities. This additional working time obligation is not limited to the above 195 days. They do not have any contractual holiday entitlements or overall limits on working hours. The provision for deduction at 1/365th per day is not an additional contractually agreed benefit but is based upon the working time requirements provided in the STPCD."

www.gardnercroft.co.uk/journal/many-days-year-teachers-really-work/

"Some assistance in this type of case can I think be found in the judgment of Scott J in Sim at 928G-929C, which is relied upon by the appellants as follows:

In considering the scope of a teacher’s professional obligations as a teacher, it is convenient to start with those matters that are common ground. It is accepted that the teachers have an obligation to teach their classes in accordance with the timetable from time to time in force. It is accepted that they have obligations properly to prepare for their classes and to mark the schoolwork done by their pupils either in class or as homework. It is accepted that these latter obligations may require work to be done outside normal school hours. To put the point another way, a teacher could not excuse a failure to be properly prepared for a class or a failure to mark schoolwork within a reasonable time after it had been done by pointing out, correct though the observation might be, that he or she had not had time within school hours to do the work. It is, perhaps, one of the hallmarks of professional employment, as opposed to employment in non-professional capacities, that professionals are employed to provide a particular service and have a contractual obligation to do so properly. A worker in a car factory or shop may clock off at 5.30 pm or, perhaps, work late on an overtime basis. An employed professional does not usually have an overtime option. He is employed to provide a particular service to proper professional standards. His contract may require his attendance in an office or other place of work for particular hours but his contractual obligations are not necessarily limited to work done within those hours. So, too, teachers’ duties are not necessarily confined to their obligation to be on school premises during school hours and to take their classes during those hours

Extracts from TES community discussion - which actually just come up if you google: Are Teachers Paid For The Holidays?:

"Depends on what contract you have. If paid by the hour, on supply or taking up a maternity leave cover it is unlikely you would be paid for holiday periods. If full time and permanent, then yes, for all 13 weeks worth of holidays you are paid as part of your annual salary."

"You get an annual salary, i.e. you are paid for the whole year. So, yes, we do get paid for the holidays. Some may say we earn it by working more during term time than other jobs. So over a year it all evens out. You also need the holidays because you work hard during the terms."

"You are only paid for the 1265 hours you work as directed time."

"Not true. These is merely the current limit on the hours which the headteacher may direct (tell you what to do) your work and is usually taken up by mostly teaching and then meetings."

"You are paid to carry out the duties specified in your contract and therefore expected to work as many hours outside the 1265 as necessary."

"...if there is no limit on the amount of hours you could be expected to teach beyond the 1265 hours..."

"There is a limit. Teachers must work such "reasonable additional hours" so as to discharge their professional duties. So the limit is down to reasonableness"

"... is correct. The DT hours do not constitute the entire contracted time of a teacher...Teaching is essentially a job where there are no contractual limits on work time. What are reasonable hours beyond the 1265 DT hours for a full-timer, is up to individual teachers to decide."

Academy Schools don't have to stick to the Burgundy Book but they generally do - otherwise there might be an uplift in pay to allow for extra hours/duties etc.

BoneyBackJefferson · 21/07/2018 23:12

Clavinova

Yet there is nothing in that post that proves your point, the legal remit just reiterates what has been posted and the TES stuff is just opinion but mainly -other than a few misinformed people- also repeats what has been posted here.

Clavinova · 21/07/2018 23:13

cantkeepawayforever
I'm glad you qualified that with 'in secondary' - as in primary the last 2-3 weeks of the summer term are by far the busiest of the year 'behind the scenes

Yes, I can see that - I have one ds finishing Year 11 (and his teachers haven't had any lessons with him for weeks!) and one still in primary.

Clavinova · 21/07/2018 23:15

BoneyBackJefferson
Yet there is nothing in that post that proves your point

By all means post something, ANYTHING that proves your point.

Aintnothingbutaheartache · 21/07/2018 23:20

hairnightmare17 I feel your pain! Ignoring all the psychodrama, I doubt you will get a reply from the teachers over the summer. Some do, some don’t. Thing is, you trust your boy. They do get the marks from exams, course work, blah blah. I really don’t think you need to go all boot camp on him. 4 or 7, if it’s a subject he cares about for A level then a bit of work over the hols won’t do him any harm.
Maybe have a chat about his overall aims and goals, a little self motivation is a powerful thing.
Try not to piss him off and try not to get yourself stressed x

Clavinova · 21/07/2018 23:25

I reiterate - I really cannot understand how so many teachers can be that ill-informed about their pay and conditions. The number of times that I've read on this forum that everything a teacher does outside of directed hours is unpaid overtime beggars belief - teaching as a profession will never earn the respect that it might deserve unless teachers display a professional mind set.

MoonsAndJunes · 21/07/2018 23:51

bearing in mind that the teacher would probably have much less marking to do during her undirected time that week (especially in a secondary school) - and therefore potentially more time to answer parents' emails.

This seriously made me laugh.
Might be true for some but definitely not all. The last 2 weeks have been hectic. Sports day, celebration assemblies, year trips, curriculum competitions, final data input, report checking & printing, taking down diplays, normal timetable 90% of the time and for us, packing up 4 classrooms for a switch around on week 3 of the holidays. (No, we don't get the removal men in like most 'companies' we do it).

I'm starting to wonder if the teacher did actually see the e-mail at the end of term & put it to the bottom of his/her to do listi ...'right, I've done everything I can for this boy all year, he's done sweet F'all revision, he's got a 4 and he's gone home and made out it's MY misrake...'

I hope this teacher is away on some beach somewhere.

Maddy70 · 22/07/2018 00:54

I'm a teacher. I make a point of not checking my emails when I'm off. I'm on holiday

TheFallenMadonna · 22/07/2018 06:33

I think it's pretty rubbish actually that you haven't had a reply. This is a pretty simple query, and not having had a response in four working days is poor, especially when that means you might not get one until September. This isn't really about teachers answering emails on holiday.

TheFallenMadonna · 22/07/2018 06:35

I'm a teacher btw, and putting a parental email at the bottom of a to do list to the extent that I don't deal with it before I leave for my holiday is really poor form.

Pengggwn · 22/07/2018 06:48

I think it's pretty rubbish actually that you haven't had a reply. This is a pretty simple query, and not having had a response in four working days is poor, especially when that means you might not get one until September. This isn't really about teachers answering emails on holiday.

But the OP has no idea why she didn't receive a response. I would almost always reply on the same day, but not if I was ill, or on a trip, for example. And putting a parental email at the bottom of my to-do list might not sound like a polite thing to do, but I if I am up against multiple marking deadlines - which, if missed, earn us disciplinary meetings at my school - then it becomes the reasonable thing to do.

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