Anonymously they say what we have all known for years.

[divadee]

I saw this article today and I have to say it didn't surprise me. Upset me and made me angry but it only says what women have known for years and years.

$Stop moaning about it and get to a position where you get to call the shots just like them. Make your own throne and kick them away from it. If you act like they need for the job role most dont give a shit if you're a woman or not*

As a (female) manufacturing business owner (before I retired) I so agree with this.

This is so stupid. As if everyone has the skill set, personality and ability to just start their own company.

I have an interesting idea - make the companies of EACH PARENT liable for half the costs of each of the parents. So the mother's company pays for half her maternity leave and half the paternity leave costs, and the father's company pays for half the maternity leave and half the paternity leave costs - whether they are married or not.

If that were to happen there would be no further financial implications for the father's employer if the parental leave were shared.

There would be a reduced financial cost to the mother's employer.

So all of a sudden women and men would be treated equally across the board by employers. Actually, men would be treated with slightly more suspicion because they would be lumped together with the feckless men who father children with several women and don't shoulder any of the responsibility.

I agree that not everyone has the skills set to start up their own company. But women do tend to undersell themselves. There’s a load of evidence that shows that women are far less likely to push for promotions and higher salaries than men.

And looking around my own workplace at colleagues in my age group who have no dependent children or caring responsibilies, literally around half the women work part time. None of the men in that category do. And most of those men are in more senior roles.

There’s nothing wrong with that- if that’s what these individuals choose. But I just think people should be honest. If you want to work part time in a less senior position, purely because it suits you and not because of any caring responsibilities, then it’s a bit much to complain.

I realise this is slightly off topic because the OP is about recruitment. But it’s part of the picture. I know loads of women my age (50s) who have never wanted to return to a full time career, even long after the kids are grown and left home. The downside of that is that you’re likely to restrict your opportunities career-wise (as well as with salary and pension) - these things need to be factored in when making choices.

I’m all for equality in the workplace (I’m one of the senior managers myself) and I would never consider a woman less able or employable simply because of her gender. However, many women choose to ‘lower’ roles career wise, and we need to recognise when it’s a personal choice.

It was always wrong to lumber employers with any of the burden of maternity leave. The full cost of maternity leave needs to be split between the taxpayer and the parents. I suggest that we start paying companies a small amount of compensation for putting up with maternity leave, then gradually raise it until official statistics indicate discrimination has disappeared.

When I say split between the taxpayer and parents, that could be anywhere from 100% taxpayer (who is part of the electorate who wants this social policy) to 100% the parents who have chosen to have a child.

My boss told me recently that he finds women generally become better at their jobs after they have children (because they have to be far more efficient during the time they are actually at work), whereas he doesn't notice the same thing with men after they become fathers.

"When I say split between the taxpayer and parents, that could be anywhere from 100% taxpayer (who is part of the electorate who wants this social policy) to 100% the parents who have chosen to have a child."

The trouble with that is that the biggest voting demographic are the people who are beyond child-rearing age, so they won't want to pay for policies which don't benefit them. We'd end up with 100% of the burden falling on parents, like it does in third world countries like the USA.

Perhaps for each child in respect of whom maternity leave is taken, the employer compensation would be financed initially be a loan from the government, which would be repaid via a levy on both parents salaries.

We'd end up with 100% of the burden falling on parents, like it does in third world countries like the USA.

I don't think we would, the way things are structured at the moment, I'd guess 50% of the adult population aren't net contributors to the state, so don't fully pay for their families healthcare or their children's education. The small extra burden of paying for maternity leave is unlikely to change the way we do things.

In theory I wouldn't have a problem with parents paying 100%, that would actually be ideal. But it's just not practical in a society where half of adults don't earn enough to pay tax.

Although I suppose I'm overlooking that those non-working or low-earning adults aren't going to be the ones imposing most of the maternity leave costs!

Depressing views on here. Better than discriminating against women would be changing the workplace to have more people (men and women) able to work flexibly. We have both men and women who work from home, work part time and work flexible hours at our workplace and it makes for a happier and more productive work place. We’re too hung up on presenteism in this country focussing more on time in the office than actual results.Allowing people to shift their hours about to manage child care, or lookafter an elderly relative or just to do a course or a hobby they fancy makes people feel valued and put in the extra effort when it’s really needed.

I don’t think the views on here are depressing. I haven’t seen anyone going on about presenteeism.

I think to a certain extent it’s rhe reality that’s a tad depressing... transferable parental leave not being taken up. Women underselling themselves and thinking they can’t aspire to the more interesting and lucrative roles.

If we really want equality, it starts in the home as much as the workplace. I personally know of 2 women who’ve recently had babies who have decided they won’t transfer some of their leave to the baby’s father. They’ve said they want the full 12 months for themselves. Now thats depressing!

Offering men paternity rights and benefits on the same basis as women's maternity rights would potentially make men less desirable than women.

Men can father many more children than women can have babies. Sometimes with little or no space between them.

I think trying this policy would give women's employment a boost. I'm all in favour!

I personally know of 2 women who’ve recently had babies who have decided they won’t transfer some of their leave to the baby’s father. They’ve said they want the full 12 months for themselves. Now thats depressing

It’s such a tricky one to squre though. Because I wasn’t ready to be apart from my baby until he was about 9/10 months old. I couldn’t have gone back to work any earlier than that. Not because I wanted to sit on my arse and skive, but I couldn’t bear not to be with my baby.

No way should paternity rights be the same as maternity... goodness, It would be possible for a man to spend his entire working life hardly ever actually in the workplace if he fathered child after child!!

IMO the optimum system is one which promotes shared responsibilities and equality in the workplace and home as much as possible. But that’s only feasible if couples buy into it and make use of it

My own generation is the one where regulated childcare began to take off and it became more usual for mums to return to work after ML. My mother’s generation were mostly SAHM, and day nurseries were pretty non existent anyway. Before that, my grandmother’s generation was one where women pretty much had to stop work on marriage and motherhood. My granny was expected to step down from her teaching job when she married my grandad!

It’s interesting how far things have come in a relatively short space of time. But it’s also frustrating to a degree, because even though we were fortunate in being able to retain our careers, my friends and I never had access to things like shared parental leave, free nursery hours, long maternity leaves... it sometimes feels like these were the things we fought for - things which would make working life better for women and men, but they’re not being maximised now. I found it really sad that my dh was back at work the day after our children were born- but there was no paternity leave so we just had to suck it up. If shared parental leave had existed, I’d have been delighted. I do think that although there is always room for improvement, we ought to recognise how far society has moved forward in terms of enabling parents to have equality. If they choose it. And that’s the million dollar question...

PrincePhilip- but that’s my point. It is a choice. I’m not saying you made the wrong one- because that’s for you and your partner to agree on.

But women could say, ok, I’ll have 6 months, or 9 months with our baby, and then I think it would be fabulous for the baby to have 6/3 months being cared for by the father. Good for the baby, good for the dad.

There are greater choices now than ever before. How people decide to make use of them is a different matter, but there are greater choices.

@momo “it would be possible for a man to spend his entire working life hardly ever in the workplace” has the irony escaped you that this is exactly what women can do now? Why is it ok for us to have that option but not men?

I do agree with you though that a system promoting shared responsibility is the way forward. As I said upthread I’d like to see a 6 months paid for each parent (they can take less if they like, but if they want to take any more it would b unpaid and have to come out of personal holiday entitlement) and subsidised childcare to make it easier for parents to work. I don’t think staying out of the workforce for years on end is good for anyone

I'm in the US and have taken 3 leaves here. There is no maternity leave because they have put pregnancy as a disability. When you take leave you are on short term disability and then they have family leave which is there to protect families who are hit with life changing events such as illness, having a child or caring. After having a baby employers are required to hold your position for 26 weeks.

From a monetary stand point disability pays very well IMO. In my state it's 2/3rds of pay up to $500 a week. It's 6 weeks for a vaginal birth and 8 weeks for a CS. Any complications result in this being extended. If you have PND your disability can be extended to 26 weeks and your employer must hold your job for you during this time. After this you become long term sick and the idea is you would move to social security.

Employers are required to support BF. Lactation facilities must be provided and the Disabilities act protects women from being discriminated against who BF. The vast majority of women with children under 6 months pump at work. Many continue to pump for longer.

Really interesting idea overthehedgehammy .

I went back to work FT when firstborn was barely 2 months old. People thought i didn't want to be with my baby. Handed my entire wages to a nanny with tax (again) to govt. Pumped in loo, tears etc. I come from a working culture where 6-8 weeks leave is the norm so I did it here. Except that I learned the very hard way, with zero family/grandparent help, that in UK childcare is poor, unsupported, not well institutionalised, not subsidised - unlike most European countries. They do expect mums to do it. The childcare factor does not incentise mums enough to work FT (ignoring those who choose to be a sahp) It feels like the country devalues childcarers of any kind. it's a thankless public service like roads or airports that requires funding and intervention (a village that raises a child).

Dh and i are the same age, same degree/qualifications, earned the same at every stage. he now outearns me and will continue to as our paths have diverged. I chose to do something more administrative because I do not enjoy senior management politics.

I find many women expect to be primary carers, inherently expecting men to provide, or waltz into a senior role - despite protesting this stereotype. People won't like this comment. When I interview candidates I admit to some unconscious bias, because so many mums have left and gone part time. I look for FT commitment and the right attitude. in a corporate setting, you have to care about the bottom line. But I only care about output NOT presentism, male or female, or how you get to that output. if someone needs flexible hours to do school run or care for a sick child, do it. if someone has done a few hard years and want a sabbatical, go. but I expect commitment and things to be done. I also do not appreciate anyone trying to cut corners, push blame or shirk responsibility by prioritising their outside work life (can be family, social or hobbies). and mums who are never at meetings, give time to projects or bury their heads in the sand - why should they get ahead?

i strongly believe a diverse team of ages, gender and background performs best. you can't get the creativity of thought and problem solving otherwise.

I get some jobs including teaching requires physical presentism so can't comment.

Most purchasing decisions are made by women - any kind of capitalist system is better if it understands its customers. If you don’t employ them, how can you make your systems work for them? You’re happy to take their money but you’re not happy to employ them? You want them to pay you £££ to educate their dc but you think you’re too good to have to stoop to employing them? It’s bollocks quite frankly and it’s why many large businesses aimed at women and families die a death imho.

Also, when men do horrible things to women a chorus of namalt is raised to the roof but when one woman anecdotally stretches what maternity leave is designed for we’ve got actual mothers clamouring for maternity leave to be curtailed or removed for all women. A man stands for himself, but a woman stands for us all indeed. You can still discriminate against working mothers to your hearts content in the current system if that’s really what gets you out of bed in the morning.

I must have missed the bit where anyone clamoured for maternity leave to be curtailed or removed...

If we’re talking about a society where it’s totally normal for parents to share a year-long leave between them- hell yeah. Great for mum, great for dad, great for the child and great for both careers.

I realky like that idea overthehedge

I really question why anyone automatically needs a year off after having a baby. Yes there are special cases where a child or mother is sick but taking a year out is highly disruptive for a lot of careers. Sharing leave is bonkers to me. DH took half a day with one child and the most taken was a week. Two weeks would have been nice.

I agree nespresso that childcare in the U.K. is horrible. We use daycare and a sitter here in the US and it's more affordable and better quality compared to the U.K. I also never hear anyone ask me how I can leave my children or if I feel guilty about not spending time with them. It's like it's a status symbol to be a kept wife.

From a monetary stand point disability pays very well IMO. In my state it's 2/3rds of pay up to $500 a week. It's 6 weeks for a vaginal birth and 8 weeks for a CS.

I think most women in the UK/Europe would say that was absolutely crap actually, Supermum.