AIBU to make her go to her dad's?

[Dhalandchips]

I have DD(9) & D's(11). DD simply doesn't want to stay at her dad's overnight. We split up rather acrimoniously about a year ago. He lives in a one bedroom flat and has got a sofa for the DC's to sleep on. He has said we have to show a united front and tell her "it's happening" and"there'll be tears and tantrums but she has to come" . This doesn't sit comfortably with me and smacks of bullying. But of course, I'm being accused of "not giving her the right messages". I have tried to get to the bottom of why she doesn't want to go and she comes up with various excuses (his flat's too untidy, she doesn't like the sofa, he makes her feel guilty for not wanting to go, etc) AIBUforce her to go?

Absolutely agree with PitterPatterOfBigFeet

He is an abusive controlling man. He called you a cunt in front of DC. He is using them to try and control you still. You don' t want to spend time with him. No wonder.

Why in God's name would your Dd? You need to be protecting and supporting her. If you haven't seen a lawyer I suggest you do so.

Don't make her go op. She will have her reasons. I don't mean abuse or anything
I had experience of this with my.ds and it wasn't until later after years I found out how unhappy it.made.him. my battery is dying and I can't find my charger so I can't go into it now. Just don't make him go.

She's on the verge of if not actually in puberty and he can't even give her some privacy? He's a dick!

If he lives relatively nearby there's absolutely no NEED for her to stay overnight.

"There is definitely some control issues with her atm, she is very picky over food (previously would eat anything), won't sleep in her own bed at home, will only sleep with me." Since when? 2nd thread this week where I've felt the need to say to op they need to consider WHY. Red flags here op.

OP found my charger phew.
I shall try and précis that ds used to call me on a Friday afternoon at work begging me not to make him go. DD two years older was always happy to go.
It was a 1 bedroom flat too. I made a stance in court to say it wasn't appropriate but lost that argument. (One of many arguments it cost me an arm and a leg but there you go)
In years to come they told me that while DD was cleaning the flat on a Saturday the df took ds to the pub and everybody loved him and would buy him drinks.
They would live all weekend on a reduced chicken from Asda they would pick up on a Friday night. I could not believe my ears when they told me this. We had practically reached millionaire status when we were married. Then he was taking coke and I caught him out having an affair.
But I seriously didn't know he had dropped so low. I was heartbroken for them.
Sorry that was longer than a precise.
But please listen to DD.

I've woken up feeling angry at him for even suggesting that I tell her "it's happening". Who is more important here! It's not him for sure! I am going to seek professional advice, but as it's Saturday, I'm going to reply to his email with the various suggestions here. I hadn't actually thought about the next couple of years... He IS still trying to control me (and her now) Weirdly DS is very messed up when he comes back from his dad's. Angry, door slamming, stomping about the place. XH says they've had a great time, just chilling and playing xbox...

Sorry to hear about your DC's Monty, I'm in no financial position to fight in court, but probably earn too much(!) for legal aid.
I just don't see why I should be the one to make her sad.

DF lives on the opposite side of town. Should be a 15 minute drive but no matter what time of day more likely to take half an hour. Occasionally 45 minutes, sometimes an hour. Once, in rush hour (with road works) it took 1.5 hours to drive the 5 miles. The drive makes me lose the will to live as the traffic is so unpredictable. He can't drive because of his illness (my being his chauffeur was one of the bugbears of the relationship, he didn't pass his driving test until he was 54)

Were you married? I am guessing not, otherwise you should be putting him in a position where he can adequately provide for his children.

I think that up to teenage it a very good idea to enforce contact. If not, how would you feel if your son decided not to come back to yours because he was enjoying unlimited tv and Wifi?

If your daughter is consistently upset when there (as opposed to just the idea of going) then clearly this needs to be investigated and addressed. Only if she is not being properly cared for should contact cease.

A one bed flat does sound rough but many take just one room for a whole family on holiday and it is only for one night.

A few years ago I would have been all for trying to make it work, encouraging her to go and helping the children maintain a positive relationship with their father.

Due to my own exh's behaviour over recent years I absolutely categorically adamantly and quite seriously now have a different view. It probably isn't a popular one. But basically he can fuck off with his shitty flat and ideas of forcing her to go. Illness or no illness if he wants to have his children staying then he needs to man up and create the environment that makes them want to. That's not your responsibility. Trust your instincts and respect her view and defend her to the death against anyone who wants to make her do something she doesn't want to do, including her father. Be 100% on her side and don't be afraid for him to know that. I wouldn't want to spend one night in a grubby flat, sharing a bed with my dad or my brother while they play Xbox etc after seeing my dad call my mum a cunt . So why would she?

Larry Grylls: I don't understand your first sentence...yes we're still married but why should I be putting him in a position where he can provide for the kids? I may have misunderstood you. I work but don't earn a huge amount! I would if course be devastated if DS wanted to live with his dad because of unlimited TV and games etc, although that is unlikely to happen as the flat is for over 55's only, no children can live there.

Desmondo: this is exactly how I feel. I know we have to do things in life we don't want to but I really can't bring myself to make her go. I tell them every day that they are independent minded, strong, beautiful people and give them a lot of responsibility for their tender years. I respect them and their wishes hugely and this just feels so wrong, like I'm taking away her autonomy.

The cynic in me imagines that your ex is probably feeding your DS lies about you while you’re not there. Hence the bad behaviour on his return and your DD’s refusal to go.
Assuming ex isnt actually that much of a dick, what does he do with your daughter when she’s there? I wonder if she’s bored? Maybe suggest some activities she might enjoy that he can arrange for contact days that don’t necessarily involve her needing to sleep at his house.

The fact that she gets so upset and your son so angry, suggests he is possibly saying things about you while they are there, it Shiva as if he was verbally and emotionally abusive to you if not physically. Have an honest chat with both of them and ask what goes on there , does anything happen or is anything said that makes them uncomfortable

Why can't the boy share with dad, girl have sofabed? Or as pp suggest mattress on floor. Is either of them behaving inappropriately with her?
Is she happy to go for the day and come home to sleep, or doesn't want to go at all? He should be asking why, not just pushing thru. Why cant he get a taxi to collect them?
Give her a break, go with what she can manage. If pressure is off maybe she can speak more freely. Encourage her to tell him why she won't go, but back her up. Try again when her concerns are sorted. Sounds like boy also not happy with situation?

Please OP don't make her go.
I always encouraged contact for my 2 yr old. She loved it.
(I missed her dreadfully)
When he moved house and have her the attic bedroom she refused to sleep over but still wanted day visits - she was 6 I took her at her word and OK .
On the the 2 occasions she wanted to come home mid visit we fetched her.
Mind you he was a good father and had a lovely place for her to visit ( she just didn't like sleep on a different floor to everyone else at 6 )
And there was trips out.
At 15 she had her own phone so organised her own visits.
At 16 when he moved aboard she had some great summer holidays with him.
When she fell out with him at 20 I let her be.
My point is I followed her lead.
Please follow your gut. Don't bad mouth him. Just trust her.
My daughter has grown into a lovely confident woman with many friends. I'm very proud of her.

You've said he's controlling and gaslights, no wonder she doesn't want to go. It's probably an awful lot to do with the emotional blackmail that's going on the trying to guilt her into visiting.

Is he mobile/able to walk? The weather is nice - suggest you drop DD off near him for them to have a picnic for a few hours - out the flat, he only needs to provide food - then take DD home?

If it's the sleeping which is the main issue could you suggest picking her up in the evening so she spends the full day with him but doesn't have to sleep there. Your ex surely can't argue that they are missing out on quality time when they're asleep?

OP I work with children in a safeguarding role. Without wishing to alarm you there are several things that raise concern for me.

You recognise that your Ex is "controlling" and that your DC's witnessed heated arguments in which he was verbally aggressive towards you.

Your DD is increasingly resistant to contact and becomes distressed when pressured to spend time at her Dad's. She has started to express her distress by restricting food and has become fearful of sleeping in her own bed.

When your DS comes back from contact he appears angry and behaves in a way that the is out of character for him.

Whilst there is no direct evidence that your DC's are being deliberately mistreated at their Dad's, they are communicating through their behaviour that something is not right. Your DD in particular is making it very clear that she does not feel safe at Dad's right now (I'm talking about feeling emotionally safe, not necessarily saying she feels physically frightened of him although that is a possibility) and she deserves to be heard.

It may be that having witnessed him behaving aggressively towards you, she needs time to move past that and learn to trust him again. Until she is ready for overnight contact he could work on building trust by spending time with her during the day, either at his his flat or taking her out. But I certainly wouldn't be forcing her to sleepover.

If only the family court saw safeguarding concerns as a priority @MinisterforCheekyFuckery

What happens if you simply let her decide what she does and doesn’t want? I ask this very sincerely.

She doesn’t want to go. You don’t feel right to make her go. She’s not 2 years old - surely her wishes will be recognised if it went to court?

I guess I’m asking what is the worst case scenario if you just follow your gut on this?

The worst case scenario would probably be more public villification on FB by him (I blocked him ages ago, so just get snippets from acquaintances) which doesn't bother me in the slightest. And DD would grow further from her dad.
I hear what you're saying about her needing to build trust in him.
I'm feeling really supported by you all, thank you for taking the time to respond.

Update. I emailed her dad and outlined what she has said about the bed, his girlfriend,his lack of engagement etc. He has said he will try. I am going to lend him our camping bed (he will have to make space for it) and I be told her that if she wants to do 'fun' things, then she's going to have to get used to his gf being around as she's the one with the transport!! He told me I was being disingenuous by suggesting he wasn't available for them so I've offered him more dates in the summer holidays, to which he's responded"I'll see if I'm free" !! We are going to set up regular EOW after the summer which should make things easier. Apparently children like routine, I'm not good at that sort of thing so I'm willing to give it ago.
DD is currently ok with going for the week at the end of July, they're going to auntie's caravan on the coast.
Fingers crossed!

Well done for being the bigger person!

He doesn't get quite get it though does he hopefully he'll pull his finger out and make more effort with DD.